What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
81 messages Options
12345
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

Podrido
@ElS1

Historically speaking air strikes have never worked in any situation where insurgents are at play, and the risk of striking innocent civilians or causing long term infrastructure damage is too great, which will only bolster cartel numbers just as it has with extremists in the Middle East.

Adding further chaos to the mix is by no means a long term solution, it's simply a bandaid with poor surface adhesion.

- Afghanistan and Iraq are clear examples of this. Coalition forces may have registered a high kill count through their search and destroy missions, thus taking out 'current' objectives at the time, but as soon as they left the Taliban resurged and now control massive swathes of the country with greater support than ever. And of course with Iraq we all know how that has gone. (Mosul in 2014?)

- Vietnam too. The US focused greatly on that same logic of S&D and as soon as they withdrew Saigon became Ho Chi Minh city, because they failed to comprehend the real problems and took a singular approach of violence as any kind of solution.

- Libya is another great example. NATO helped rebels remove Gaddafi (specifically with air strikes and the supply of weapons as many people on here suggest we do in Mexico,) but failed to address the root cultural, political and economic problems of the situation the same as they did in the aforementioned situations. Libya has become just as fractured and unstable as Iraq as a result.

This is the exact scenario that would occur if any coalition military force entered Mexico. Let's not forget that the military has already been fighting a conventional war against cartels for over a decade with shallow results.

Death is no deterrent to these people, nor to the children who join their ranks. Physiologically and psychologically speaking children, teens and young adults fail to grasp the full range of consequences their actions can produce. None of them believe -they- will be killed if they join or have other reasons not to care.

I really can't stress this enough though. Conventional military tactics like S&D, drone and air strikes, etc will always fail against geurilla warfare and they always have; history proves this.
Just a lurker.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

Mica
I completely disagree that airstrikes would not be successful (although it would never happen).

1. The comparison used compares a Holy war and religious enemies, this is not the case in Mexico.  Islamic terrorist ultimate goal is to die while killing enemies.  DTO's objective is money, not death.

2. DTO sell products (where your example individuals only target their "religious enemies"). It's no different than any other supply chain being interrupted.  Just the idea of knowing tactical drones are watching would stop most of the familiar routines and actions that occur now.  Interrupted supply chain equals loss of money, power, etc...

3. Many of the failures mentioned occurred under a different administration that wished to be liked by all.  Again, this will never happen but imagine Calderon with the support of Trump administration.  
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

Podrido
This post was updated on .
@Mica

Pleasure to have your response good sir! Always been a big fan of your posts, very informative.

1.

 The comparison regarding Jihad was only used for Afghanistan. As I'm sure you are aware the wars with Iraq, Vietnam and Libya were not focused on religious elements. (Iraq did not have Sunni extremists arrive until later into the conflict when Saddam realized he was going to lose and called for Sunni Jihad; originally the goal was to dispose of the Saddam regime which was a thoroughly political element and which repressed or at least held extremists in check. Libya's extremists also popped up only after Gaddafi had been deposed, as Gaddafi as well held widespread extremist violence in check through authoritarian means.)

Regardless, your response is exciting because I just finished a fairly extensive book on Jihadi social and political culture. The ultimate goal of any faithful Mujahid is to achieve Martyrdom in most cases, I agree, but there are a number of complexities to that as well. There is also the fact that when IS took over territory in Iraq they were paying members a salary upon finding all that cash in Mosul, and a great number of captured militants later admitted they only joined the cause as soldiers of fortune. (Which is directly comparable to cartel sicarios, who are in effect mercenaries themselves, and also serves as a good indication that IS' mercenaries were not in any way deterred by air strikes be they Russian, US or otherwise.)

Somali pirates are also subject to drone strikes and do not seem deterred by fear of death. Why? Because they need money to survive regardless of the risks.

Further to this, not all extremists are willing to die in combat and are quite fearful of death just as anyone is. They feel only that to be a Mujahideen is the peak of religious piety and a duty they must undertake in order to protect themselves, their faith, and their people's. (Which is precisely why drone strikes in the Middle East have contributed to an increase in extremist ranks, rather than diminishing them. The more you strike them the more moderates begin to side with them upon losing family members or friends. I feel this is the same in Mexico, people often forget cartel members have families too - and are loved. The Human element is important as only a small percentage are sadistic sociopaths.)

2.

 DTO's sell products yes, as do most extremist groups. I agree that drone strikes would, for a short while, disrupt the supply chain. However, in direct response to what you say about stopping the most 'familiar' routines and actions, why would you want to do that?

I would think that until you have sufficiently weakened an organization by other means you'd prefer to have a good understanding of their operations rather than to force them further underground and to find new ways of conducting business you then have to spend resources on discovering, that kind of war of attrition again historically, is doomed to failure. Besides, if you begin targeting training camps and open convoys in the mountains as many are suggesting, you kill those directly under the bombs sure.

But as we have already seen, criminals adapt and stop utilizing convoys unless out of necessity. They move into smaller less conspicuous vehicles like VW Jetta's and travel in packs of one or two as any insurgent group does, I know you personally are aware of that; you're one of the most informed on this forum.

To this effect you lose visual on them, and then what? Do you start conducting air strikes on city centers where safehouses and training grounds inevitably migrate? All airstrikes achieve in this instance is giving way for criminal innovation to solve the latest problem. (Same as the Viet Cong in Vietnam, how many tonnes of bombs did the US drop on the Ho Chi Minh trail? The Viet Cong were not a religious organization whose ultimate aim was to die in combat, yet this immense bombardment did absolutely nil to deter them. In fact, every interview you see will conclude they were only given more confidence by this strategy.)

To bring it back to Jihadi's as that was what your response was focused on primarily, they did the same thing. Airstrikes forced them to blend in that much more with local populaces, it did not deter them at all, and every Jihadi understands you cannot achieve martyrdom by purposefully putting yourself at risk of a drone strike. Because of this we have seen drone strikes being conducted on civilian centers en masse. Israel, the US and Russia are the greatest example of this atrocity wherein they express a complete disregard for civilian life. How do you think Mexico would respond to that same tactic? Have they not already suffered enough?

3.

 Admittedly I don't really know a whole lot about the differences in administrations, that's definitely a falling point for me. So I'm not entirely sure how to respond to this point, but I don't think any political administration can change the general laws of engagement.

Really, just look at history. Regardless of religious involvement, political, racial or even money (Somali pirates, Serbians in Albania, etc,) drone/air strikes have never worked.

Not once have they had the intended effect.

That being said, if Mexico did have the support of the Trump administration I really think the outcome would depend on what that support looked like.

Arguably we have already seen the outcome of that 'support' and it hasn't been good for Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, Colombia or any other country that the US military or intelligence agencies have even remotely gotten involved in. Their largest draw back in any conflict they get in the middle of is their focus on killing and their lack of comprehending cultural and socio-economic issues which then result in tremendous long term consequences for the countries involved.

However, I'm not sure any of your points lended to any explanation of why you feel air strikes would be successful or what the definition of success is to you. Is success simply disrupting operations for a time and weakening them somewhat? (this does not stop them entirely, and like I said is only a bandaid for a broader issue.)
Just a lurker.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

canadiana
Administrator
In reply to this post by Podrido
What a great discussion going on here!AMLO are you listening to all this?I have to agree with you Podrido on younger people not knowing the consequences of their decisions.That comes with experience at life and developing life skills which younger people don't have much practice at and that the attitude is "I won't be killed' until it's too late.I often think watching those interrogation videos on rivals that these guys almost have a fatalist attitude that maybe they think they deserve to die and they seemed resigned to it as they well know what is going to happen to them after the interview.They really must ponder that they did not envision this at the time of joining that 'It won't happen to me'.Whereas me I'd be pissed thinking 'I don't deserve to die and this is so unfair' although until a person is in that situation you really don't know what they are thinking.I also think an innocent person would be in denial about impending death until the end whereas these criminals know what's coming to them as they have done this themselves and know what's up and even how they will react to torture and death based on their immense experiences around death.As far as economy I have been around a red hot economy and the drugs do flow( because everyone's got cash and the criminals capitalize) and I've been around a recession economy and drugs also proliferate because people are drowning their sorrows (as well as a high suicide rate among males in their 50's) so I think it matters little about the economy and the poorest people have the most vices-does that apply to Mexico?
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

ElS1
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Podrido
These criminals have effectively silenced the people,  the government,  the national media,  even the global media for some reason that no one wants to admit.  
 They could at least watch where they go by satellite and make it easier to dispose of these little convoys of pickups.   Mexico is near paralyzed by the lack of security.   If they don't get help, in 10 years the cartels will openly control elections.
  CJNG and CDN already promise (and deliver) more than the GOM does.   If that happens, it may go like Iraq - messy.
   Most likely, after Amlo is gone and the people are desperate for serious intervention,  a real war will start using modern weapons from the U.S..   Not the mid-20th century stuff they're all using right now.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

Podrido
In reply to this post by canadiana
@Canadiana

Yes! This is my favourite kind of discussion and I'm quite pleased to see one has popped up on the forum. My apologies to everyone for the walls of text.

Also I completely agree with you in regards to youth. I find it quite sad to see how many of the 'combatants' if you can call them that, are under 20. Especially in the northeastern regions. There are so few valid reasons for anyone to be put into a situation where they risk death, and I think in the case of Mexico a lot of those who join or are forcibly recruited do not see many alternatives. Or wrongly think it is a good life to lead, they wish to have power or influence of some form because they see no other means to achieve it.

I am also fascinated by that look you see in their eyes in those videos. The ones in that famous video La Barbie put out always come to mind specifically, with the black plastic back drop. In some cases you almost wonder if they have been drugged, some sort of minor sympathy or comfort on part of the sicarios. Not all of these people are heartless monsters after all, and many sicarios admit to nightmares and swimming with regret for their actions while also expressing the fact they have no option but to carry forward.

Also yes, you are correct. An extreme economy in any direction is sure to produce greater activity in criminality. I did forget to think of a strong economy in my previous responses. But yes, given you are Canadian like me (I suspect) then I presume you are referring to places like Fort Mac and Vancouver? Vancouver's criminals are especially interesting as many of them hail from middle class families, and hence I think perhaps it isn't that 'poorest people' have the most vices.

It is that instead perhaps those under educated do, as they do not see or feel interested in other means of finding stimulation to pass the time.

I think especially here in Canada that culture of criminality being a status symbol is especially prevalent. I know I felt this when I was younger as did the majority of my friends. (I'm only 26 now, granted, so I still have a great deal to learn) but I grew up around members of Canada's local organized crime and hung out with many of the dealers, bank robbers, commercial burglars, etc as a result of this. A part of me still thinks being on that fringe of society is appealing, but growing up around others who were deep into that lifestyle was also a good deterrent on its own.

As a young man I think it is a draw to power that attracts most. Young people especially desire power because growing up you feel everything is dictated to you, and the pursuit of power or status allows you to make your mark upon society, stand out, and feel independent.
Just a lurker.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

Podrido
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by ElS1
@ElS1

I completely agree. Talking about - or at least openly discussing the depth and severity of this issue is not something most people are willing to do. At the very least it may even be more a culture of apathy, people simply don't care. Media is overwhelmed with reports of suffering and the general populace has become numb to it.

As an example, how many of you who watch videos on here flinch as much as you did the first time you saw an execution? I doubt many of you feel emotions as strongly as you did when these videos first came out, and this is perhaps actually why we see criminals going to greater lengths to get shock value. They know that people have seen bodies with simple gunshot wounds a thousand times; the message will not get across any longer to see that alone, and we are reaching a stage now where even headless corpses do not deliver the kind of fear that is intended. It's unfortunate if nothing else.

In response to your point though,

I think you're right. Surveillance is key and is a necessary part of preparation and aerial surveillance would be a great addition in that aspect.

I think as well that you are correct, if nothing is done or rather, if the same strategy continues to be used the inevitable outcome is a failed state, or at least one wherein government collusion reaches even more severe levels than we have already seen and leads to international isolation. (Russia in earlier years was sort of a good example of this through the Solntsevskaya Bratva, which they reportedly colluded with in order to help stem Chechen dissent, wherein many cases Chechen militants were supported and even staffed by members of the Chechen Mafia. The DPRK runs an extensive black market economy too, though this is mostly out of necessity. The Assad regime has also been widely accused of colluding with criminals in order to deal with political activists, and interestingly as well, top members of the KLA in Kosovo reportedly had ties to Albanian crime lords who funded and weaponized their struggle.)
Just a lurker.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

Mica
In reply to this post by Podrido
@Podrido
Your rebuttal makes some very well thought out points!

My only counterpoint is regards to the disruption of the supply chain forcing the figureheads of DTO’s to go underground.  I think this would ultimately be there demise.  They being the millennial leaders and not necessarily the older generations.

Very few of these leaders hide in plain sight in luxury.  The financial squeeze reduces payoff protection and mistakes are made out of desperation.

The other reason I believe air strikes would be successful is in the area of cartel on cartel violence.  How many times have we seen opposing convoys with marked trucks in the same area. After 1 successfull air strike,  common knowledge of such an event will drastically reduce this kind of violence.

I keep visualizing Saddam in a hole with $1M in cash.  ;-)

I enjoyed reading all of the response.

P.S. Wrote this from my phone, internet trolls don’t beat me up on spewing and grammar!
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

ElGrandeRojo
In reply to this post by Podrido
By burning the body, I mean either eradicate,or arrest and keep in prison for lengthy sentences. Also, they must take control of theprisons. No BS going on. Take away all incentives to lead a violent life.
ElGrandeRojo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

Podrido
In reply to this post by Mica
@Mica

Likewise to you! You make some points I hadn't considered previously.

I think in regards to the millennial leaders that's a fair point. Given their youth and the criminal climate in Mexico the majority of them certainly learned to work in an environment where they have been afforded relative impunity and the ability to work with some openness. (CDN readily comes to mind here.)

If you did put them in a position where they had to forego all of that luxury and open displays of power, etc, I think there is a reasonable argument to be made that you would see results. I think though, that this would only serve you for a limited time frame before they managed to adapt. Humans are incredibly innovative and adaptable when put into situations of extreme pressure and prejudice and I bring to mind again the Ho Chi Minh trail. When the US began bombarding the surface route, they simply began moving what they could underground. (Narcos already regularly utilize tunneling systems of course, but I think this would greatly increase under the threat of regular aerial attack or surveillance.)

As you say though, it is also true that this disruption to move loads across the border would cause issues in regards to pay offs, which is its biggest benefit. But this would also force them to branch into other zones of revenue more strongly too. I think this is part of why fractured groups have moved so heavily into ransom taking, express kidnappings and extortion. You need not roll in a convoy to do these things, and so those criminal rents would be mostly unaffected by air strikes imo.

However


I agree that in terms of cartel on cartel violence there's a reasonable point there too, especially if you could manage to pull it off in a way which would result in no collateral damage - and not minimal - but absolutely zero. I think that would be the only way the general public would accept such a maneuver.

That being said, I think the use of helicopters with miniguns (as we have seen in some instances, i.e. the death of the BLO's H2 in 2017) provide a similar sort of overwhelming display of force and greatly mitigates the risk of civilian casualties when used effectively and with precision in mind. Also much less expensive, and is something that can actually be employed under current conditions.

I also think that's a great visual regarding Saddam haha, and am glad you enjoyed the response despite its length!
Just a lurker.
H39
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

H39
In reply to this post by ElGrandeRojo
I'm not sure how does those airstrikes would work in a case like, you would hit their convoys, you hit their convoys once and then they will stop using convoys or if they want to create some videos for propaganda reasons they will just use a remote zone or a town they fully control.

What next ? They don't control territory directly like ISIS did, they are inside the mexican society, even supported by some communities. Drone strikes in cities, would you accept the fallout, dead innocents, population scared, business leaving because of huge instability -> poverty -> more crime, in my opinion this is a huge problem when a state can't rely on a police force and use the military for policing which is not their purpose. Also killing every criminals won't solve anything, they will just fight fiercer because they know they will die anyway making police work more dangerous and less people will join which will weaken the police even more.

The biggest problem plaguing Mexico is corruption, everything is in the hands of the state, they take care of security, education, welfare, wages, business environment but there is no political will to change that and the politicians profits from this environment which fills their pockets and even more for those that have only one 6 year term, what they got to lose, they can't run for office again so there is no need to make anything else than fill your pocket untill your six year term ends

If there is political will there are solution for resolving this grim situation, even legalization of drugs but not necessary for hurting the cartels profits because they will move to other ventures but because of the revenues from it which would be huge, take the revenues from this new industry and offer the cops better wages and conditions which generate more security which will bring in more business meaning more tax going in other domains like education, unemployment reduction, better border control, rehabilitation prisons and not crime hotbed, better urbanization and more.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

Podrido
In reply to this post by ElGrandeRojo
@ElGrandeRojo

I agree, current members must be addressed in combination with change at a social and economic level in order to see real results.

Extrajudicial killing of criminals is not the solution imo, as stated in a previous post by 'Anon' this only results in backing them into a corner where they must fight their way out. (Thus catching civilians in the crossfire and building emotional tensions even higher as vengeance becomes a primary motivator.) However, I agree fully that arrest and incarceration for purposes of rehabilitation (if possible, understanding some are too far gone) is a great move.

Securing prisons is also a must, but given how extensive the corruption goes there that is just as hard a fight as anything else unfortunately. I doubt we will see substantial change in our lifetimes, but as they say, time heals all wounds, and eventually this will smooth over.

Edit: Oops, 'H39' got to it first and said it much better than I could have!
Just a lurker.
TF
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

TF
Banned User
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by H39
CONTENTS DELETED
The author has deleted this message.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

ElS1
In reply to this post by Podrido
Time is not on the side of Mexico.

  The big cartels like CJNG are getting more powerful everyday.   Everyone else in Mexico is not.
    The next election will ALL about who is going to BEAT the cartel(s) and stop crime, but it will be nothing but a show.

By that time,  all military operations will be suspended.    Amlo is phasing out all the drug war effort by the government and has a deadline for civil groups (the "new" guardia national) to take over.   Even prosecution will be "judged" by civilian courts.
Basically, the war will be over - gangs will, no doubt,  have positioned themselves to have full control.   Different groups will continue to fight each other as hard as they can to secure their territory for when that day comes.   It's going to be 5 years of unprecedented violence.   After that,  the civilian population will be completely owned by the cartel(s) with the GOM soon to follow.

If Mexico doesn't get help now (because they are already can't afford this fight) - it will begin the slow,  painful,  and REAL decline into a failed state.
  Everyone with money will leave.    Gangs will control everything.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

Podrido
In reply to this post by TF
@TF

I concur and agree with everything you have said, very well put.

That being said I think this violence occurs as a result of any number of different factors. Organized crime exists in every nation, yet not every nation suffers from such widespread abuses, corruption and disappearances as you see in Mexico, Honduras, the Bahamas, South Africa etc.

If you wish to examine the underlying causes of violence there are a number of different ways to do this, and any number of them could be as much to blame for contributing as the next. (Centers of drug production? Important trafficking routes? Conflict zones? Strong or weak economy? Etc.)

In order to tackle the problem though, you must first understand why it exists in the first place. Only then can you come to an adequate solution. (I do not yet know enough about the history or cultural base of Mexico to adequately assess this myself.)

What do countries such as these (with 30+ per 100K murder rates) and other higher rate states share in common with one another?

______


When it comes to solutions, a multi-pronged approach is needed and works best, but only if given true focus. Unfortunately, while individual actors may dedicate to approaches in education, jobs, mental health etc, overall the primary focus of government is search and destroy, which is useless on its own as already established. (And what is needed is for the govt it self to really dedicate to reforms and securing the trust of its people just as much as handling current criminal actors.)

- In terms of western culture specifically, one needs to withdraw from society the idea that criminality equals status. Changing the social dynamic in this way takes time, but if we stop glorifying a life of crime and instead view it for what it is I think this will help reduce the recruitment of youths.

- Penal reform is also a good idea. The privatization of prison systems in the US does have an effect on the violence in Mexico the same as it has in Honduras, El Salvador, etc. People who go into prison for non-violent crime come out of what is essentially college for offenders. As the efforts aren't so much on rehabilitation as they are on punishment, frankly due to the fact private prisons earn money based on their population, do they not? Their incentive is to get more, not help there be less. Anyway, to my point, those who are then deported to other countries pose a risk of destabilization. (The introduction of the Latin Kings, MS13 and various other gangs into Latin America is a good example of this.) To this respect penal reform is required on many levels, including internally in Mexico wherein they need to take back control.

- I think the notion of gun control in the US also has merit. It's so easy to get firearms in the states and because of this straw buyers are a big thing for cartels, this also occurs north of the border here in Canada. This has been seen in manyyy instances, even some that included border patrol agents and US military personnel serving as straw buyers on behalf of Mexican criminal organizations. Gun control in the US is such a heated issue for some reason though, and many Americans are remiss to think the US contributes at all to Mexico's instability or other countries like it.

- Decriminalization is a thought, but cartels and criminal organizations at large are often owners of legitimate business just as much as illicit business. However, if you can tax their income you have the opportunity to take that money and put it into things like education and infrastructure, which will lead people away from such uncertain and dangerous lives as crime.

I think whatever Japan has done to approach the problem of organized crime is the best, as is the efforts of countries in Scandinavia when addressing crime at large. Rehabilitation is the focus in prisons, as is the treatment of offenders as dignified Human beings. The further you isolate anyone the more they will come to despise you and be resistant to change. It is worth taking into consideration though that simply copy/pasting their approaches will not work as you must also take into account cultural factors. But utilizing their models as a foundation to build from is a good start.
Just a lurker.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

Podrido
In reply to this post by ElS1
@ElS1

I admit I don't know enough about AMLO's strategy to really comment on what you describe here. The focus of my studies and interests in topics of criminal deviancy are much more on cultural and social interaction among criminals and between criminals and civilians rather than focusing upon the political element in this instance.

I only really become engaged with political study when authoritarian regimes are involved.

That being said, if nothing else AMLO is approaching the issue from a new angle. I think until we really see it in effect it will be hard to judge its merits. I do agree though that no approach at all is not exactly a wise decision!
Just a lurker.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

ElS1
In reply to this post by Podrido
Cartels already think about printing 3D gun parts.   Good enough for local business.
http://knowledgeglue.com/mexican-drug-cartels-making-guns/
This was years ago.

     Mexico has been a class based society for a long time.   All mexican know (believe),  if you let yourself become poor,  you and your children will likely ALWAYS be poor.    These people, even the psychopaths, never plan on turning back.   Sane or not, they plan for complete takeover.   It's not hard to control a disarmed and mostly broke population - they've been doing it for a while.
 People on TV, in universities, and offices can have their intellectual conversations about how it's such a disgrace and what should be done.   The TCO don't care,  they need nothing from them.   They've got teenagers hired for $500/month as disposable assassins for pesky journalists and police investigators.   They've modeled themselves after the famous Italian mobsters that controlled New York back in the day -  Except there is no FBI to stop them.

   Cancun,  reality check
https://youtu.be/XUu10CKnyE4?t=157
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

canadiana
Administrator
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Podrido
Podrido do not apologize for wordy texts.It's your fingers hurting not mine haha.The forum is supposed to stimulate further conversation on the topics.I must say I am shocked at your age as from reading your enjoyable posts I would have gaged you as an  older intellectual type (no offence it's actually a compliment).I know at 26 I wouldn't have been too much into these discussions.(I wanted to travel to far off lands instead,in other words doing instead of reflecting).
As far as the look in those sicario's eyes after capture they just look so doomed and defeated( they look tired is more like it).The chainsaw video comes to mind.The guy doesn't even seem to pull away when the chainsaw touches his neck which should just be an automatic reflex.When the chainsaw hits the other sicario's arm again not much response from him either.It's almost like they welcome it and want to get it done and over with.(they probably know stuff about death that we don't being around it so much).I can't see why they would be drugged unless they were already high when caught.I can't see why the drugs would be wasted on the enemy as that defeats the whole purpose of torturing to inflict the most pain before death.
With the mention of economy the boom and bust of the oil patch comes to mind.Yes I think of Fort McMurray and of the Bauken oilfields in North Dakota and Montana, fracking boom towns where the meth flowed freely (probably still does) and at the other extreme Pennsylvania,Virginia where coal was once king and people have drowned their sorrows in Oxy and opiates.
I also agree with you that it's not necessarily poverty that gets people into drugs (although in Mexico it's probably a higher percentage I'm sure than north of the border).Power, yes like you said about younger people are used to being dictated to by parents,etc. and also adventure and fun might be another reason and as a way of supplying financially one's own supply by dealing drugs which I think would be the highest percentage of the why people deal drugs.
Mica do not be too concerned about your spelling on here.I won't allow the trolls and vocabulary police to shut our mouths.
Normally we at Borderland Beat like a headline story at the top of a post rather than a question but I had an inkling this post would catch on and get quite interesting and it did.TF sure got something going here.It got more hits than most stories on forum.It took awhile to get going but thoughts had to materialize.Another post I found quite interesting was the 1 someone started about the legitmacy of the Michoacán autodefences and Dr.Mireles and Chivis explained that quite well when many people I'm sure had on their minds that why in the hell would you allow another criminal organization in your town and that if it was your daughter being raped you would to get rid of the scum.You do what you have to to get it to stop (the lesser of the 2 evils I guess) but that's in another post and I'm getting off the topic.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

Podrido
In reply to this post by Podrido
http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2019/09/2-million-us-weapons-have-crossed-into.html

This link is already on front page, but I think it's also relevant to our conversation here in terms of understanding the underlying causes of violence in Mexico are not limited to Mexico's borders alone.
Just a lurker.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

Podrido
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by canadiana
@Canadiana

Haha, yes! They certainly do hurt after some of these posts. That being said I've always been interested in these kinds of conversations I suppose; I'd like to travel as well, but alas I work far too much to find much time for it.

I was also reminded of the chainsaw video, the one where those two individuals are against the concrete wall, yes?

I think it makes sense to be tired after an existence such as that, and I have read and listened to many interviews wherein the exhaustion in the criminals voice is quite striking. They seem entirely numb to almost everything around them in some cases, even if they claim to hate what they do.

In terms of the drugging I think that is a fair point in most cases, but I don't think all sicarios torture to inflict the most pain. Broly Banderas comes to mind, I think in many interviews he stated he only tortured victims if his bosses were present. The sadistic infliction of pain on others is very much an unnatural act even if competing for territory and power is not. I think in most cases sicarios would prefer not to do it and that is demonstrated in numerous interviews and accounts, hence why I think if given the opportunity they might find a way to lessen a victims pain even if they know they must eventually kill them. This is of course not universal as we have seen in cases like La Wera Loca, Cmdte Diablo, El Lucifer, Z-40, etc.

In regards to Wera Loca I believe her family was unfortunately dismembered on video, yes? I never watched the video but I believe they knock the women unconscious with blunt objects first before murdering them, this is an example of what I mean.

Any business of blood will always attract the sorts of personalities who revel in the infliction of suffering upon others, however. This cannot be avoided, nor can the existence of such individuals.

____________


I think in boom economies like oilfields and coal and the like the suggestion of a relatively uneducated populace contributes to the crime and drug use you see there just as much as the sudden influx of money does. I think this is proven in the Fort McMurray case in particular.

From what I know about it you had people working low educational requirement jobs making something like $90 - 120,000 annually. Not ever having had money like that before, or really knowing what to do with it you saw a loooooot of people spending all of their income on things like vehicles, jet skis, ATVs, drugs, houses, etc.

Suddenly when fires swept the city, no one had any savings and you had people who were making six figure salaries begging for money and telling news outlets they'd be homeless without receiving monetary aid.

I think that is the common factor in both a low and strong economy in regards to crime. Even if money is present, the lack of education then becomes the contributing factor to drugs or violence as much as the draw to power and status which having money ultimately provides.

I think too that you are correct about the draw to adventure and fun. Similarly to how war was romanticized at the beginning of the First World War, a life of crime too is glorified and romanticized here in the west.

Images of cars, money, sex and power are the most promoted ideas of criminal life, and while death is spoken about on the side, as we established earlier young recruits don't feel death or even prison will be their outcome. They all seem to view themselves as becoming the next Tony Montana and that when death does come for them they will be immortalized in the glory of battle.
Just a lurker.
12345