What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

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TF
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What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

TF
I hope this post isn't inappropriate for the forum, moderators please move or delete if it is.

There are many subject matter experts posting on this forum so I wanted to ask some of them about their views on what solutions would address the seemingly endless problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico. What policies or strategies in your view would actually work?

Thank you to all the contributors to this site for bringing information about the drug war to light.
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Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

ElS1
  Mexico has to ask for help
The U.S. military can take out these heavily armed cartels that roam the country taking out anyone that dares police them.
Right now,  NO ONE wants to enter a career in Mexico as a police officer, journalist, military, or even be a politician in Mexico.    
The hopeless young people, trained badasses, and sociopaths/psychopaths are proudly lining up to work for criminals organizations.     Business is booming,  the pay is MUCH better.  Power, sex, cars, drugs,etc are a winning sales pitch - and you can get away with murder.

The Mexican government, on it's own, will continue failing and losing more faith of the people.    Right now, paid-off people call in the locations of all the movements of government forces.   Cartel bands just hide and wait to ambush - anywhere, anytime.  Everyone knows this.

Satellites and air strikes could be used.  
Track their movements,   destroy their camps,
 give the Mexican people something to believe in.
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Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

Mica
In reply to this post by TF
For me it all comes down to law and order.  

Speaking in generic terms: Mexicans do not trust their police agencies and feel that criminals are in control.  This is supported by the number of unsolved crimes, specifically homicides that are unsolved.  The only thing to do IMO is to legally allow citizens to arm themselves.  Rebranding the national agencies have done nothing.

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Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

ElGrandeRojo
I think arming citizens is a 1st step. That will uptick violenc for awhile. Then Mexico needs to ask for help, and let other forces in to eradicate. I think it has to be UN or NATO, something like that. Not only US, so no one can say we are invading. Next a new Gov must be set up. All old gov officials be retired, and replaced. Nothing of the old guard can stay. The UN would need to stay and help form the new gov to help keep corruption out as much as possible. That will take 10-20yrs to get to zero. JMO
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Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

Anon
In reply to this post by TF
The crime problem can be solved, but it will require systematic reforms. First off the politicians must be held accountable to the courts for allowing drug traffickers to be protected. Second the country needs to really enforce their banking regulations.

If the traffickers are cut off from political protection and access to the financial system they will lose their power. Then, they can be continually arrested and prosecuted (and they need to be prosecuted, not just left in jail for five years or so and then released because the system never got around to them). Marijuana legalization in the US is cutting into a major source of DTO revenue, cocaine is down, opiates and meth are way up. So they can attack the influx of precursor chemicals and hold corps accountable for being shells to bring these things in.

Essentially for Mexico to really change they need to have a much stronger system of checks and balances so that no one gets a free ride. This is the same as anywhere else, but every country has corruption, the question is who has access. In the US drug traffickers are super low on the list of people who have access to power. In Mexico, it could be that way, but "plato o' plomo" is pretty effective and they can get to people.

Politicians may not want to be corrupt, but it may be the only way to protect themselves and their families. So it isn't a simple problem but consolidation of power by a Dictatorship or one large cartel will not work (we had that under the Guadalajara cartel, then the Juarez cartel under the PRI.) Breaking the cartels up will lead to factions and violence. The traffickers need to be cut off from access to power and the financial system and being a member of an ongoing criminal enterprise should be a crime in and off itself (similar to RICO in the US.) This, in theory, would improve the situation dramatically.
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Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

Ciro
In reply to this post by TF
Theres nothing you can do.  Theres too much of a demand for drugs in the USA also the ease of obtaining a gun in the USA is a issue.  Its a losing battle for Mexico until the war on drugs in ended and the flow of money and guns from the UsA is stopped.  
TF
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Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

TF
In reply to this post by TF
In my view, arming the citizens in Mexico is not a viable solution and almost certainly would lead to a significant increase in violence. Although this is not exclusively the case by any means, the majority of the violence in Mexico is criminal-on-criminal violence. Making firearms more accessible to citizens in Mexico means that firearms will also be more accessible to the people doing most of the violence already.

Although I'm not a scholar or professional, in my view the fundamental problem is the demand for illegal drugs in the US and around the world, and the institutional corruption at every level of society in Mexico. The demand for drugs that is met by the black market is the lifeblood of the violent criminal groups and provides them with enough money to arm themselves with military-grade weaponry. Although every one of the gangs have now diversified into every conceivable criminal enterprise, the revenue from producing, smuggling and selling drugs is in the high tens or low hundreds of billions of dollars annually. Without this income, criminal groups would not be able to function at the capacity and scale that they currently do. Along the same lines, the corrupting influence of this enormously profitable industry, in my view, is central to the systemic corruption in Mexico. The criminal groups simply would not be able to operate as they presently do without the corrupt institutions that tolerate and assist them.

So what solutions are there to these fundamental causes of the violence in Mexico? I don't know the answers to that. One thing that must happen is that the police and government officials be free from corruption. The people in Mexico must be able to trust their police and their government and the police and government must be accountable to the people. Violent crimes cannot go unpunished, the abysmal homicide case clearance rate in Mexico must change. When the worst crime there is happens to someone's family member, the perpetrators must be found and held accountable by the legal system. For investigators to solve murders that take place, the people must trust the police enough to cooperate with them knowing that they will be protected for doing so.

The demand for illegal drugs will never go away, so for as long as drugs remain illegal, there will always be criminal enterprises meeting the demand. Drugs and especially hard drugs cause terrible harm to the people that use them. But the war on drugs has accomplished nothing in reducing the availability of drugs. The war on drugs has not reduced the violence associated with the drug trade. By every objective metric, the war on drugs has failed to meet its stated goals. In my view, the social costs of the prohibition of drugs far exceeds the likely social costs of legalizing and regulating the drug trade. But I am not so sure that even if drugs were legalized today that the violence in Mexico would be reduced. The criminal organizations are so powerful now and the corruption in Mexico is so widespread, I think it is not unlikely that the cartels would simply diversify into other areas if drugs were legalized in the US and elsewhere.

What are the solutions to the problems in Mexico? I don't know, but it must not be the case that there is no hope for addressing these problems. This site has been an incredible eye-opener for me. I had no idea just how bad the nightmare really was that people in Tamaulipas and Colima and Guererro and Michoacan have to live with everyday. It's bullshit that the American demand for drugs is fueling so much of the violence on the other side of the border, and most people in the US have at best a basic and incomplete idea of what is really happening there, other than El Chapo was a bad guy and they eventually caught him. Again, thank you to all the contributors to this site who probably at times are risking their own lives to bring this information to light. Thank you for what you do. I hope more people hear
about this stuff and become aware of the role that their country plays in fomenting all of this violence. I'd like to hear what other people have to say.
Kab
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Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

Kab
They should go back to the shadows, like it used to be, and apply the death penalty to narco terrorism.
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Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

canadiana
Administrator
In reply to this post by TF
This is a rather interesting discussion.I agree with all of these comments about reining in the violence.Question is to what degree for each of them will show results we can only guess and I'm sure this discussion isn't over.People keep commenting about the drug demand north of the border but even if that was completely cut off what about drugs unleashed on the local Mexican population?That in my opinion has definitely ramped up the violence locally when selling drugs on almost all the street corners and bars and stores.
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Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

RGV AG
In reply to this post by TF
1.  First and absolutely foremost change the system of government towards a more US type of system.
2.  Change the taxation basis and regulations.  Empower localities, i.e. municipalities and towns to have a say so in their taxation and expenditures.  The Mexican system has not and does not work, yet it continues on.
3.  Reform labor laws that keep wages low due to archaic and idiotic legalities and provisions.  Wages will rise due to this.  
4.  Allow citizens to own weapons for self defense.   Yes, there will be more violence and there will be some big issues.   Legal framework and laws would also have to change, and that is where the hitch gets into the giddyup.   Think about things this way, if good common people could defend themselves and their holdings the lure of criminality would be a whole lot less given the down side risk.  
5.  A shit ton needs to be spent, and in a way to get results not the typical Mexican goat rope, on education and advancement.   Results need to be measured and quantified in order to ensure an advancing populace.
6.  Implementation of US type tax laws in regard to generational wealth, i.e. death taxes.   Vast oligarch holdings need to be taxed heavily unless those holdings are out in the economy producing wealth.  
7.  Simplify tax code so people can come out of the shadows and into the formal economy, generating more legit revenue and legit employment.  
8.  During the "house ordering" the Mexicans need to hammer the US politically in a big way about the failed war on drugs in the US.   Some common sense decisions that take some or all of the profit out of the drug stuff needs to arrived at by both countries (but in both countries there are those that do not want this).  

Demand for drugs and other problems in the US has truly nothing to do with the root cause of Mexico's dysfunction.  The violence and mayhem in Mexico that manifests itself in the drug and wet issue has at is origins the failure of the Mexican governmental system and the economic disenfranchisement of a vast portion of the population.  If it weren't dope or wets, these multitudes of ill educated and ill raised youth would probably be in a mess with something else.  The downside is that the money in the illegal stuff gives them power, both to corrupt and to intimidate via violence and impunity.  

Mexico is a big, bad mess and unless the system of government is changed everything to improve it is just pissing into the wind.  
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Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

El Guero
In reply to this post by TF
The fish rots from the head.  These politicians are the only problem that I feal is insurmountable.  People have no faith in their system from the top down.  How will you have honest cops if every single person above them in the chain of command is crooked?

I'm sorry but arming civilians in Mexico is useless.  When you have Sicsrio riding 7 deep in armored trucks with .50 Cal mounted machine guns and full support from local police how would anyone protect themselives from that?  These guys are trained killers.  And when it comes to murder the murderer always has the advantage.  You can't defend yourself from guys like that.  Unless you're a comic book character.

The corruption is so engrained in the system at this point and the hydra effect so strong that I don't see anything short of a political revolution solving it.
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Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

El Guero
Nothing is going to stop us from wanting drugs on this side of the border.  Furthermore nothing will stop Mexico from supplying it.  But the cartels need to be controlled by the government and  not the other way around.

They are businessmen and it has to become a bad business decision to kill civilians and hang them from bridges.  Once they realize there are consequences to this behavior rather than increased rewards they will change course.

The mafia is still alive in tge US.  Not like in the 60s or 70s byt they are atill there.  But they are kept in check and theyve almost forgot how to murder.  They're top scared to kill anyone anymore because of the RICO act.  They have to  be made to play nice and stop kidnapping and extorting.
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Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

Anon
Things do change though. I think there has been a huge decentralization of the drug trade over the last 20-25 years. Plus the drugs themselves have changed. At first it was Marijuana and Heroin and then Cocaine was king for a long time with Meth playing a supporting role.

Now Marijuana, Mexican Heroin and Cocaine have all tanked for various reasons. Marijuana because the US produces its own supply, Heroin because of synthetic opioids and cocaine for many reasons, over a long period of time. So the system which required large cartels to control vast areas of territory (and that earned billions of dollars annually), and required territory for cultivation and production, is changing. Now the main drugs are Fentanyl and Meth. These can be produced in kitchens and smuggled by a small group for a ton of money.

The system doesn't have to rely on a Capo who can tie everything together, just a small group to cook and a few strategic people paid off. This is leading to violence as the cartels break up, the smaller groups don't want to pay and some don't know how to produce drugs so they are involved in extortion and kidnapping etc. Ultimately this change is bringing violence, but it does present some opportunities. These gangs (smaller cartels, rebelling cartel cells, independent traffickers, and the factions breaking off of the two large cartels) will be more susceptible to arrest and will have less capacity to really infiltrate the political and banking systems. There will be a lot of violence, however, until impunity is gone.

Being a member of these organizations should be a crime, just like it is in the US, under RICO. If there is a murder tied to the organization, the whole organization can go down. The solution is in clean policing organizations and honest politicians. Not the military. The good thing is that these smaller organizations, although wealthy and violent, will have less access than the large cartels of the 80's, 90's, and 00's. So it will be a long process, but like everything else, things will change.
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Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

juris
In reply to this post by TF
The problem is, the genie is out of the bottle.  Drugs are almost an afterthought. Meaning, there are som many other rackets that they are fighting over that even if the drug trade dried up tomorrow, it would still be a mess.
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Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

El Guero
Anon and Juris:
You both have very good points.  Neither of which augur a good fate for the Mexican people.  

The rise of synthetic drugs and the vast profits being madr from nontraditional rackets such as kidnapping, extortion, oil theft, etc reall have changed the dynamics to the point where small groups csn compete regionally against the larger and more centralized organizations.

I dont know how you contend with such factors as a government or as a people.
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Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

Anon
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by juris
Juris- I agree with you, but I do think that these newer organizations don't have nearly as much money as the large cartels. Therefore, they will have less ability to corrupt. I think there is an opportunity to make things better, but it will take a long time.
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Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

Anon
In reply to this post by El Guero
El Guerro- The two large organizations (CJNG and Sinaloa) are breaking up. As soon as Mayo and Mencho go down those groups will break apart. So we'll be left with just a ton of smaller criminal organizations. Kind of like a Mexican BACRIM (Bandas Criminales), which is the situation in Colombia. In the long term the violence can be curtailed but violence has to be counterproductive for these groups. There can not be impunity. If you commit murder then the state must be able to arrest you, prosecute you and take you out of society for the rest of your life. These days murder is not punished, Mexico clears like 6% of homicide cases, it is insane. If they got it up to like 60-70% (off the top of my head I believe that is close to the US rate), then things would change. Also a RICO type law would really hurt these guys. If one member commits a crime then the whole group could go down as being engaged in a criminal operation. Ultimately, the state has to do it. The large cartels were able to buy large portions of the state from all levels. The smaller groups will not be able to, and that makes me, at least a little bit, optimistic.
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Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

canadiana
Administrator
What does RICO letters stand for and is it new and basically what does it do?I think you might be on to something Anon with the smaller groups being more violent for a long time but having less $$ to corrupt (or they will just put the profits up their nose and forget about protection) but they are probably here to stay as the Mexican populace that are already addicted will demand their drugs and someone will supply.The smaller towns will probably proliferate with the criminals as their law enforcement is easier to control so I'm thinking big cities will be safer,the rural areas not so much.
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Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

Anon
RICO stands for Rackateering Influenced Corrupt Organizations Act. For drug cases the feds usually use the Continuing Criminal Enterprise Law (CCE). These laws are similar in that they make it a crime to engage with a group in a systematic pattern of criminal activity. Under RICO, the feds needs to show that such an organization exists and that its purpose is illegal. Then you can indict and prosecute everyone connected to that organization and hand down some nasty sentences. This leads to everyone turning on each other. It did a ton of damage to the Italian American crime families in the 80s and 90s, then they adapted, but they have become way more low key. Murder isn’t really a thing with them anymore. There was a standing rule that hits were banned, because they didn’t want the whole organization being tied in. So it has been effective, but it is only one tool.

Criminal organizations exist in practically every country and they are here to stay in Mexico, but they can be made less violent, and less powerful.
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Re: What are the solutions to the problem of organized crime and the violence associated with it in Mexico?

ElGrandeRojo
I think Anon is correct on many points. The 2 things I see holding Mexico in this current are, their own skyrocketing drug problem, and  the low price on human life. Our old mafia thugs were fierce, and well organized. These cartel guys are whacked out on drugs. They have no codes, and are more brutal. These people not only kill you, they torture and kill you with the most cruel and sadistic methods that can be imagined. The acceptance of this violence is now 3 generations deep. It's going to take a long time. I think complete eradication is the only way.
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