The Gun Rights Issue Thread

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The Gun Rights Issue Thread

Smurf
This topic is for anyone who wants to discuss the gun issue. Do you think Mexico should have its own 2nd amendment? or do you think that is the LAST thing we need right now?

Are you in the U.S. and support gun rights? Or do you think we would simply be better off without them altogether?

Is the U.S. at fault for allowing its weapons to flow so easily into Mexico via gun shows and legal dealers? Or is it all just a bunch of liberal BS?

Well this is the ultimate thread where this topic can be discussed, there is no right or wrong opinions. Just keep an open mind when posting and responding.

- Smurf
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Re: The Gun Rights Issue Thread

Frontera
Smurf wrote
This topic is for anyone who wants to discuss the gun issue. Do you think Mexico should have its own 2nd amendment? or do you think that is the LAST thing we need right now? Are you in the U.S. and support gun rights? Or do you think we would simply be better off without them altogether?

- Smurf
Smurf your questions beg a question: Would the US have gained independence from Britain without the right to bare arms?


Smurf: "Is the U.S. at fault for allowing its weapons to flow so easily into Mexico via gun shows and legal dealers? Or is it all just a bunch of liberal BS?"


Not knowing what the stats is it would be unwise to provide an answer. Do you have stats as to where the bulk of narco guns come from?

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Re: The Gun Rights Issue Thread

Smurf
Frontera,
 
The U.S. revolution was fought prior to gun rights, at the time the 2nd amendment wasn't recognized by the ruling colonial power at the time, England. The primary reason we fought that war was taxes, not guns.

To your second question about whether or not the flow of arms to Mexico is documented:  the L.A. Times did some research of the subject on a Nov 10th article and had this to say on the issue:

"About 7,000 licensed U.S. gun dealers operate near the 2,000-mile border, and cartel leaders often hire straw buyers to purchase firearms and pay others to transport the weapons into Mexico. Just as the drugs flow steadily north, the guns reach Mexico secreted under truck beds or stashed in car trunks, sometimes even hidden in clothing."

And the ATF went of the record with this:

"ATF officials defended their marquee program, named Project Gunrunner, saying it has gone a long way in combating the illegal flow of U.S. firearms into Mexico since it was started in Texas in 2005 and expanded nationwide a year later.

Kenneth E. Melson, the ATF's deputy director, said in a lengthy rebuttal letter to the inspector general's report that there had been "significant accomplishments," with gun investigations up by 109% and prosecutions up by 54% under the project.

But he said a reduction in funds had limited some gun-tracing operations and had stalled attempts by the ATF to place more U.S. agents in Mexican police stations to work on joint investigations.

He said funding last year covered only seven of the 23 agents needed to expand intelligence operations and that funding for the remaining 16 was not authorized this fiscal year."

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/nov/10/nation/la-na-mexico-guns-20101110
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Re: The Gun Rights Issue Thread

Smurf
In reply to this post by Frontera
Here is another cliche topic EVERY U.S. gun nut seems to bring up:

"This argument should not be about gun control vs rights under the 2nd ammendment. That argument is completely skirting the issue.

The issue is, How do Mexican citizens, with the help of the military, take back their towns and their property and prevent becoming pawns at the mercy of gangs of killers.

IF Mexico can sent the best of its military into the border towns, to start, with enough ammunition to distribute to citizens willing and able to protect themselves and their families, arm them, give them a little basic training where necessary, they will empower citizens to become active participants to help rid their town of this frontal assault.

Soldiers would have to go house to house, street by street, to meet these families and help arm them (something like US military did in Irag, but I don't think we gave them guns).

Soldiers would have to stay awhile to be sure but together they could turn the tide and put the bandits on the run instead of the other way around. And Mexico would keep its own citizens in control of this war instead of an outside military force.

This of course presupposes the military sent to these towns are mem and women of integrity who truly want to take back their country. All the ammunition confiscated from drug raids should be collected and given to the military for distribution amongst the people of these towns.

This strategy involves trust, but once trust is built it will spread like wildfire. This method could also help towns rid themselves of corrupt police because every town knows who these people are. Now they may be willing to stand up to them and say "No more."

 - Not trying to pick on anyone, but that is fucking insane. There is NO WAY you can convince every man, woman and child in Mex to pick up a gun and go after narco's. To suggest this is actually quite insulting to the people in Mexico.

If you wanna post crazy revolution theories, this is prob a better place to post them than in the comment section.

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Re: The Gun Rights Issue Thread

Frontera
Smurf: “The U.S. revolution was fought prior to gun rights, at the time the 2nd amendment wasn't recognized by the ruling colonial power at the time, England. The primary reason we fought that war was taxes, not guns. “

The point to be made: Would the US have gained independence without guns?

Smurf: “To your second question about whether or not the flow of arms to Mexico is documented:  the L.A. Times did some research of the subject on a Nov 10th article and had this to say on the issue.”

In all fairness there are no factual stats, rather articles and comments thereof. There is no question that a percentage of arms/ammo comes from the US – but what is the percentage from other countries? Although it is better to deal in factual stats, we suppose estimations could apply, to some degree.

Smurf: “Here is another cliche topic EVERY U.S. gun nut seems to bring up: “

Using the term ‘gun nut’ reflects your political leanings.

Smurf: - “Not trying to pick on anyone, but that is fucking insane. There is NO WAY you can convince every man, woman and child in Mex to pick up a gun and go after narco's. To suggest this is actually quite insulting to the people in Mexico. “

The general Mexican populous knowledge of how to operate a gun of any kind is slim to none, due to a lack of use. Time consumption in training could be better spent elsewhere.  So yes it would be unrealistic to arm every citizen…but then again we need to consider how the Mexican revolution was successful.
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Re: The Gun Rights Issue Thread

survey
In reply to this post by Smurf
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Re: The Gun Rights Issue Thread

Smurf
In reply to this post by Frontera
Valid points Frontera,

Look, my issue isn't with the 2nd amendment or guns themselves; its the laizze faire attitude the U.S. takes with respect to SHADY gun shows that allow weapons to get into the hands of criminals. I have no problem with anyone's LEGAL right to own a weapon. I personally don't see the need for assault rifles but as an American i don't begrudge anyone else from having one. But don't make it easy for these assholes to buy and then ship back to Mexico.

The whole thing about "What percentage of guns actually come from U.S. into Mexico".... Well logically speaking if your northern neighbor has super lax gun laws and you can buy weapons cash...OR you can get them imported, yeah I will give you the cuernos de chivo... but a lot of U.S. weapons are making it past the southern border and I fell we owe it to Mexico do make an effort to tighten the search for illegal weapons.

Just as much as the U.S. demands that Mexico search for illegal drugs, this is  two-way street, give and take.
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Re: The Gun Rights Issue Thread

Churro
Smurf, how many guns have you actually bought in your life in the USA regardless of state?

CQ
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Re: The Gun Rights Issue Thread

Smurf
In VA we have pretty lax gun laws. U can buy and sell them very easily in a private sale, u dont have to go to a licensed dealer and the laws are very loose in reguards to that situation.
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Re: The Gun Rights Issue Thread

yardbird
In reply to this post by Smurf
Mexico has a "2nd ammendment."
 “The inhabitants of the United Mexican States have the right to possess arms in their homes for their security and legitimate defense with the exception of those prohibited by federal law and of those reserved for the exclusive use of the Army, Navy, Air Force, and National Guard. Federal law shall determine the cases, conditions and place in which the inhabitants may be authorized to bear arms.”

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Re: The Gun Rights Issue Thread

Churro
In reply to this post by Smurf
How many have you actually bought? You ever hear of the Brady Bill? You just can't buy and sell handguns regardless of state law without proper transfer. Other weapons vary in difficulty throughout the nation. Machine guns are actually required to be licensed in VA, other weapons are not. Private sale may be easy to do, but you are on the hook IF something happens with that weapon. Any sane person would never do it without a transfer from an FFLD.

Here's the problem with the general thesis that America is supplying weapons. Look at the weapons they are using, largely Russian and Chinese, AK's and their SKS counterparts. These weapons are not manufactured in America. If they are getting grenades from south of the border, Guatemala, Honduras, and the like, you can bet there is your flow of weapons.

About gun shows. I challenge you to pull some funny shit at a gun show and see if you can buy multiple weapons, especially those not subject to the Brady Bill. There are FEDS all over the place at EVERY gun show just looking for this. The gun shows you reference existed in the 80's, I know, I used to go and buy weapons. Try that now and the ATF will be crawling up your a**.
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Re: The Gun Rights Issue Thread

anonymous
In reply to this post by Smurf
I will never understand countries like Mexico and Britain gun laws. How do you let only the bad guys have the guns. Your job as father of a family is one thing first and that is protect them and with Mexico gun laws and drug violence you are not able to do that. If they were able to carry guns a lot of these hijack punks and car jack punks would have a second thought about what they are doing.
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Re: The Gun Rights Issue Thread

anonymous
In reply to this post by Smurf
I wish the world was as peaceful as you believe it is everyone likes the idea of pacifism. But in reality there is evil in this world that carry guns and you have an obligation to protect your own how do you match that with people with guns that want to kill you the cops and military cannot be every where all the time. Know one is saying citizens fight the drug cartels what we are saying is citizens protect your homes and family only. In Texas you can carry a concealed weapon with a license and with every statistic of the states that have the same laws crime has severely dropped.
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Re: The Gun Rights Issue Thread

anonymous
In reply to this post by Smurf
I wish the world was as peaceful as you believe it is everyone likes the idea of pacifism. But in reality there is evil in this world that carry guns and you have an obligation to protect your own how do you match that with people with guns that want to kill you the cops and military cannot be every where all the time. Know one is saying citizens fight the drug cartels what we are saying is citizens protect your homes and family only. In Texas you can carry a concealed weapon with a license and with every statistic of the states that have the same laws crime has severely dropped.
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Re: The Gun Rights Issue Thread

anonymous
In reply to this post by Churro
Two one rifle way back when I used to go hunting with my father and a shotgun for duck and quale and dove. Still have them today have one locked away one loaded underneath my bed so if anyone tries to break and harm my family. I am against people being able to purchase guns that can be turned into automatics there is no use for them. But the NRA has such a stranglehold on this country no gun laws can be changed at all without a fight.
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Re: The Gun Rights Issue Thread

kat at tx
In reply to this post by Smurf
I have heard stats that 90% of the guns that Mexican authorities  recover from crimes and send to U.S. for tracing come back as weapons sold in the U.S.  Hmm could it be that Mexican authorities aren't bothering to send us tracing requests for firearms they know wern't bought in the U.S.? Maybe the Mexicans only request U.S. tracing on firearms they KNOW came from the U.S. There is widespread documented corruption in local police forces in Mexico so why would we expect them to participate in honest tracing practices? Are they really going to send to the U.S. a trace request for a gun that is not made or sold legally in the U.S?
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Re: The Gun Rights Issue Thread

guess
the 2nd amendment was not refering to arms for hunting. Arms are a right to defend ourselves from tyrants
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Re: The Gun Rights Issue Thread

anonymous
In reply to this post by kat at tx
Everyone knows that lives in the US that we don't supply 90% of the weapons in Mexico its a lie to get more money out of us and try to make us feel guilty. Look at all the murder reported they are using grenades that u cannot buy in the US the AK-47(Russian) which we don't make in America. They get there weapons from south American countries and try to blame on us its a myth. Only South america countries buy these weapons from other countries because they all have ties to Russia and to China.4
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Re: The Gun Rights Issue Thread

caveatcanem
In reply to this post by Smurf
If the US govt. can tell if I buy one, two, or five assault rifles for my personal collection why can they not tell if someone buys a shipment of AK47s? Well, let me tell you; it is because the large shipment is made illegally by OUTLAWS who could care less what the laws are. However, rest assured, they LOVE it when laws prevent law-abiding citizens from owning, possessing, and carrying guns. Gun laws that disarm the public makes the public "subjects" in what is supposed to be a land of freedom. Make no mistake, to give up freedom for a false sense of security provides neither security nor freedom. Cartels and zetas are not getting grandes, rifle-fired-granades, land mines, and such military armaments from the law abiding gun owner/carrier. I'd love to know just how much of this stuff is comming right from the Mexican Federal Armory by corrupt officials; there are just a few of those in Mexico, you know!