Still want to Legalize Heroin?

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Re: Still want to Legalize Heroin?

La Flama Blanca
If you actually read over my posts, u would see that I clearly said heroine shouldn't be legalized.  
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Re: Still want to Legalize Heroin?

ArmChairIntellect
Thanks my friend, I truly appreciate the support.  ThinkTank your entire post is antagonistic and has nothing to do with this thread.  I asked you to stop baiting, you continue, now I asked you in all your infinite wisdom to post the methodology and criteria here, instead you are trying to deflect the conversation.  Now if you would ever be so kind to post it here.    
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Re: Still want to Legalize Heroin?

ArmChairIntellect
Chivis has been very ill as of late but she wanted to comment on this thread.  The following is her response though she was unable to finish due to her health.  It is very telling and adds such insight to the subject of the harms of drug illegality and what should be the correct response.  Some might think when we talk legalization we mean a free market type of situation, this couldn't be further from the truth. No one should advocate for the recreational use of these things.  This is something that's complex, and might be beyond the grasp of some but I know most who read this can see things in the manner for which they are not what we wish they could be.

Opium was promoted as “a cure for alcoholism”
Say hello to opium addiction
Derived from opium was morphine.  Misunderstood by the public and medical profession, the United States found itself, in just one decade after its creation, smack in the tight grip of a major morphine addiction epidemic.
with no answers of how to cap the epidemic or treat it for that matter
Until….
Germans invented the “cure” to morphine by way of a new drug.
The new miracle cure was trademarked “Heroin”
The Unites States was its first foreign market soon after its creation.  Germans presented Heroin, to the United States medical community, as “Without problems, a safe Non-Addictive  substitute to morphine.
1875, The surfacing  of the United States Heroin addict,  the  minute the new miracle drug landed.  And has stubbornly remained on the US stage of epidemic drug addiction, or drug of choice  ever sense.  It has lost its center stage drug of choice  position at times, throughout its course of history, but it has held onto a strong place, albeit dubiously so, in the United States drug culture.
At this point a user had various choices to the path of addiction, morphine, heroin, cocaine, and laudanum, whatever.
The government did not put the foot on the brake pedal until after the head on collision, when in the 1920s the Dangerous Drug Act was enacted.  Woefully dilatory, as the market was created of addicts, which only grew, by taking the then legal drug out of the hands of the addict and into the grip of federal regulatory madness, that was the genesis of tiers of criminally with addiction at its core.
But hey, don’t say the government hasn’t tried other methods of cure for the addict.  
The Germans went back to the lab…Enter Methadone.  A synthetic opioid.  
Used as a pain inhibitor, but touted and used since its arrival in the US,  to temper heroin and opiate withdrawal, and as a cure for Heroin addiction and other opiate addiction.
Its chemistry caps the euphoria affect derived from opiates, no matter the amount used.  It was supposed to be Non-Addictive.  The theory was the addict would kick his addiction, and could even function for an amount of time while on the methadone cure, and would be able to continue with employment, and function as non addicts all things being equal.
Methadone clincs popped up across the nation.  However, once again it amounted toaddicts  trading one drug addcitive for another .  And methadone was a “cure”, perfectly legal, often covered by health insurance and your family doctor replaced back alley sources.
Secondly, because of the feeling of euphoria lessened with this drug, methadone addicts preferred to mix it was a second drug for the high.
Suboxone: Enter the next “New-New” cure for opiate addiction, especially in treatment of Heroin addiction.
This time the government is stingy with the certification needed by physicians to prescribe the drug.  Only about 20% have the certification.  And this tim, instead of promising a rose garden,  they are quietly saying “It MAY help with heroin addiction”.
The 20% who are certified prescribers are the low rung of the hierarchy of the medical field.  
Those who once were referred to as “snake oil salesmen”.  
For these physicians it is all about the Benjamin’s.  I had the unpleasant task of helping a friends son, who had acquired an heroin addiction, after becoming addicted to Oxy, post an accident in which he almost lost his life, breaking his back and more bones in his body than not.  It was the 8 surgery that turned the chronic pain switch on for good.  It was the spinal rods implantation that put him over the edge.  Previously he was getting all the Oxy he needed/wanted.  But then the physicians wanted him off the drug and his hell began.  He turned to the street for his Oxy, and that became prohibitive as his bank account dwindled.  He switched to the much cheaper…….Heroin.
And the beat goes on…….
I accompanied him to two consultations.  Dr. Snake Oil Sr.  then on the same day we stopped by the office of Dr. Snake Oil Jr’s.  They were much the same.  A slick marketing presentation felt like we were considering a time share, rather than seeking help for a medical issue.
After watching the movie, the doctor would come in, talk about the cure that is just around the corner for my friend.  I heard no “MAY BE around the corner.”  I then dragged out my ipad, and said I had a few questions. I won’t bore you with everything that happened that followed, lets just say he did not like me much, and for me the feeling was mutual.
But the presentation had elements on the power point such as “How to tell your partner about the program”.  Snake oil guys don’t want any mess-ups on the way to their back account. After we left, for a solid two weeks my friend was hounded by the two doctors offices encouraging another consultation, and to begin the medical testing’s and psychological testing.
Big bucks are made by these clinics.  
Some of the arguments against legalization are so weak they cross over into stupidity. “What , and then they are high and go behind the wheel of a automobile and kill people?  What if it was your family killed?”  
Pleeeeeze people, get a grip, of course society would be protected by laws enacted that would limit legal parameters of amount of drug in ones system. As in alcohol consumption.

I will say that even 8 years ago I was not a supporter of legalizing street drugs.  The exception was marijuana.  The fact that mota is illegal anywhere that alcohol is legal, is plain stupid.  But it took me awhile to come around to the other drugs, like Heroin.
I am a logical person.  I am the person who actually takes the paper marks a vertical line down the middle, Pros v Cons.  I really do listen to both camps of opposite opinions. And have concluded for all the reasons aforementioned by others, that we will never “win” a war on drugs, or wipe out  organized crime activity, if that is the goal, it is not in anyway, ever, attainable.
But we, are able to create an environment that gives good control.  We have done it with Organized crime in the US.  We did not eliminate, but have a good degree of control.  Same can be done with drugs.  There will always be drug addicts.  There is something to acknowledge  about a person that for whatever reason, genetics, environmental, are drawn to substance use of some form, and once there falls in the grip of addiction.  A predisposition can cause one person to be completely enamored by drugs and fully addicted seemingly overnight, yet another, and thank god this is the case for the majority of people, they can use and walk away without becoming trapped by addiction
Because of my brother’s addiction to heroin, I know that an addict can function while using heroin.  Not using it to get ‘high’ as is always the case initially, but ‘to get by’.  
I have asked each physician I know and my personal physicians about their position on legalizing A) mota  100% say yes  then B) with the exception of one, but was leaning that way ..say Yes.  Ask your physicians.  
One Doc who is the chief of the department for a famous university, and who I always thought was a right-right republican.  I asked him and he said adamantly, short and sweet, “give it to them”, I asked “how about drugs like heroin?”  he did not hesitate..”Give it to them, people fear what they do not understand.  But legalization would be a positive step in burying the “drug War”.  
Product will be safer, courts and prisons far less congested, a substantial element of criminality will vanish, taxes can be imposed to fund rehabilitation centers for those addicts wanting to be clean, a caveat is only privately owned rehabs and half way houses, nothing operated by the government.  
By allowing the addict to lawfully attain his drug, he would  not be arrested, would circumvent the incarceration merry-go-round, would not have a record, for the crime of addiction. He/she can thereby become gainfully employed, becoming a useful member of society instead of a burden.  To me it is unquestionable that the family dynamic would change greatly for the good.  Crimes that are conducted such as burglary, robberies etc that are committed in support of the drug would vastly be reduced.
This is an oversimplification of my thoughts.  I would love to go in-depth on the subject of legalization, but for now there is this  little overview.  
Of course legalization would not mean the culmination of black market drugs in its entirety.  BUT, it  sure would place a choke hold on the many of the issues that have become a shroud that surrounds the  criminality aspects and other problems derived from our previously attempted  solutions.
I have never partaken in recreational drugs of any type, not even mota.  I say in jest, that I am the only person of the 60’s that has never smoked pot.  Honestly, I had a deep fear.  Not of the drug, but I feared that I would fall in love with drugs as my brother had.  He was instrumental and the greatest influence over me never using recreational drug or abusing alcohol or RX drugs.  
He was murdered at the age of 25.  His baby daughter was 3 months old.  He was so smart and a musical genius, he was a golden gloves boxer. his story is a heartbreak, his struggle with dyslexia was the pivotal point in his life, his confidence shattered.  
But things were very different back then, no rehabs, it was cold turkey, and narcan could only be given at the ER or physician’s office, who were mandated to notify the police.  So an OD would mean if a person was taken to the ER,  his life may be saved, but then he would be arrested.  
So I guess in comparison, we have made some strides.  But after all these years, and gazillion ax dollars foolishly thrown at ineffective programs, and laws.  In the big picture
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Re: Still want to Legalize Heroin?

ThinkTank
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Re: Still want to Legalize Heroin?

ThinkTank
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Re: Still want to Legalize Heroin?

adam2014
In reply to this post by ArmChairIntellect
ACI

thanks for the reply to my post,i dont know the ins and outs of who wrote/studied the report but the people
are taken for real. i see you have done your homework on them anyway!!

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Re: Still want to Legalize Heroin?

adam2014
In reply to this post by ThinkTank
thinktank,

believe me,after being a member here 4 a while,nothing is black and white in mexico! to be fair nowhere in the world is.
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Re: Still want to Legalize Heroin?

ThinkTank
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Re: Still want to Legalize Heroin?

adam2014
i kind of get what your saying   but i think your kinda wrong. i think most mexican police are straight getting in but they have to pay bills and there family are under threat but  offered treble wages to allow crime,where would you stand?

mexico is a good country but you cant blame the people,they tried with the AUTO DENENCESES and they were crushed  it is a gray area
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Re: Still want to Legalize Heroin?

adam2014
ARMCHAIR

BUTANE is i think a gas i.e gas sniffing(not petrol)
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Re: Still want to Legalize Heroin?

ThinkTank
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Re: Still want to Legalize Heroin?

adam2014
there is no right or wrong,i do agree with some of your points but a man with your apparent experience (in mexico) should no better. mexico is a 3rd world country,in line with india china.
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Re: Still want to Legalize Heroin?

_Bones
In reply to this post by ThinkTank
Heroin should not be made "legal", it should be decriminalized. People should not be incarcerated for personal use, and billions of dollars should not be spent on the drug war.
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Re: Still want to Legalize Heroin?

Siskiyou_Kid
I think heroin should be a legal, regulated drug, like many pharmaceuticals.

Heroin should be available to patients who are experiencing the horror of end-stage cancer pain, and it should be administered to addicts by licensed medical professionals in a clinical setting.

In order to maintain membership in such a clinic, addicts would have to be required to participate in intensive counseling and prove they are making strides toward bettering their lives [ie, looking for work, gainfully employed, paying their own rent, supporting any family or children, etc.]

There would have to be a carrot and stick approach, where the heroin is of such good quality and quantity, that these addicts would be loath to lose access. Any arrest for a violent crime or theft would mean their suspension from the clinic, with a 3 strikes you're out system.

Testing for the use of other drugs and/or alcohol should be done from a health standpoint, not an enforcement standpoint.

Let's remember that someone who starts using tobacco is more likely to die as a result of their addiction, than someone who begins using heroin.
Those that say, don't know. Those that know, don't say.
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Re: Still want to Legalize Heroin?

La Flama Blanca
"Good points. We just all have to keep trying and keep fighting. This war of right and wrong is not over by any means. I fear this is only the beginning. A small preview of what is to come."  by: Thinktank.

You always talk about fighting for change in/for Mexico, but what are you actually doing to better the situation down there????  If you are actually doing something other than posting the same, "nothing is grey" argument over and over again, then GREAT for you.  However commenting and posting on this blog isn't really directly changing Mexico, business down there is going on as usual.  We are simply discussing what is happening there.  However, some people, for example, Chivis does a lot of volunteer work in Mexico with clinics and such...(I cant remember the specifics of her humanitarianism down there).

On another note, I've said it before, but its related to the topic.  Heroin (albeit clean/higher quality), and done in a sterile manner is one of the least harmful chemicals on the body.  It is the lifestyle that ruins people on H, not the chemical itself.  Alcohol and Meth on the other hand do more harm to the body, Liver damage kidney damage lung damage tooth decay ulcers lesions etc. etc.
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Re: Still want to Legalize Heroin?

ArmChairIntellect
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by ThinkTank
Thank you for finally providing the data.  

Here are my two cents after reviewing everything, harm is a very difficult thing to ascertain as illustrated by the study.  While very noble in their effort they themselves admit they had no data for certain criteria and had to rely on their experiences.  This doesn't mean their conclusions were wrong it just means we have to interpret their study with that in mind.  As I said earlier it is very hard to account for everything, I thought it was a valiant attempt at honestly grading harm.  They did factor into their criteria things which are a direct result of the substances being illegal.  They also accounted for drugs which were legal and the harm they pose because of this.  They did not stipulate how legalization might change the outcomes.  Very similar impression as I had before.  

I'm a psychologist, I have nothing against the lancet, there are just a lot of peer review journals and I only have so much time.

I am in the process of writing a article for the front page, it will attempt to demonstrate how legalization might work if our end goal is to minimize harm and maximize capital spent on the problem.  Part of this is showing how complex the problem is and coming to an understanding that there are no easy, simple, clean solutions.                
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Re: Still want to Legalize Heroin?

canadiana
Administrator
In reply to this post by ArmChairIntellect
Armchair I always wondered about that,your last 2 sentences but you answered it.I was married to an alcoholic for 3 years.I always wondered if it was the alcoholic causing the personality problems that weren't normal or if it was a personality dysfunction causing the alcohol abuse.Interesting.That I was confused about for many years.Thanks for that.
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Re: Still want to Legalize Heroin?

Chivis
Administrator
In reply to this post by ArmChairIntellect
ACI

I wish you would not post too much of yourself.  

I just sent email.

I have wanted an article on MB for years about the history of addiction "cures"  and why the long history tells us that is not the answer.   my knowledge as a layman is better than the majority of people, but I knew of all the BB readers it had to be you to write an article that was concise (to hold interest) truthful, and without a agenda.

You know more about my history and that of my brother than anyone.  I found myself unable to finish my comment because I flashed back to that time and maybe because I was ill, but it tore me up.

But I read the ignorance being posted and thought that we had progressed further than that.

Otis on MB and ADAM here on forum can give you their perspective on the policy of UK

The united states is in the dark ages, the evidence is clear what we have done for over 100 years doesn't work.  

Even China has a better functioning policy than the US.

If caught with drugs for personal use it is but a minor infraction, although the fine can be  stiff at up to 300 USD, jail time is never more than 2 weeks.

I agree that decriminalization may be a better avenue applicable to some drugs, and legalization for others.  

Thanks for accepting my challenge to you to write something for MB.  as you know the difference of readership between forum and MB is vast.  

Paz

C
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
DD
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Re: Still want to Legalize Heroin?

DD
Words are powerful weapons, be careful how you use them.
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Re: Still want to Legalize Heroin?

_Bones
In reply to this post by Siskiyou_Kid
Siskiyou_Kid wrote
I think heroin should be a legal, regulated drug, like many pharmaceuticals.

Heroin should be available to patients who are experiencing the horror of end-stage cancer pain, and it should be administered to addicts by licensed medical professionals in a clinical setting.

In order to maintain membership in such a clinic, addicts would have to be required to participate in intensive counseling and prove they are making strides toward bettering their lives [ie, looking for work, gainfully employed, paying their own rent, supporting any family or children, etc.]

There would have to be a carrot and stick approach, where the heroin is of such good quality and quantity, that these addicts would be loath to lose access. Any arrest for a violent crime or theft would mean their suspension from the clinic, with a 3 strikes you're out system.
This is what methadone for. It is more effective than heroin at what you described, because it can be taken orally and has a longer half life. Most major cities already have methadone maintenance plans like this in place.

However it isnt as easy as you make it seem. If threat of "3 strikes and you're out" was really a deterrent, then there wouldnt be any crime to begin with. Threats dont work to keep bad people from behaving badly. People risk going to jail and losing their connection to drugs every day. And asking an active drug addict to "look for work and support their family" is ridiculous. Most of these people are addicted to multiple drugs, they hang out with people on the fringes of society, and participate in all sorts of other risky behavior besides just their drug of choice. You are basically asking irrational people to act rationally. Drug addiction is about more than simple physical drug addiction. Most people use drugs as a symptom of other psychological issues. Trying to control the drug issue will cause their problems to manifest in other areas. Only intensive treatment solves these issues.
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