So lets talk honestly for a minute

[303]

So first a little bit about me, I am a banker in America, I am a libertarian, I have cancer, and am someone who loves, and is proud of my country.


I said that because I would like to discuss the border issue here seeing as there are I'm sure many people who have different opinions on this. My goal is for this not to get personal, but I realize this is a internet forum so that likely will not happen.

I feel as though America's border should be shut down totally, and that illegal immigrants should be prosecuted to what is written in our laws.

Now before people start calling me racist, a bigot, or anything like that hopefully, again, we should move past personal comments.

I do not feel this way because I have a distaste for the Hispanic people, if you re-read my position you will see I am against illegal immigration period.

I understand people wish to come here for a better life, and I am all for that if done legally. What I do not get is that if I come into Mexico illegally I am sent to prison for at least a year (that is what I have read at least), yet Mexicans think that it is no big deal to come into America illegally.

I have been to Mexico many times, I love it, and I love the people from there. I have many, many friends that are Hispanic, or from Latin America and I value their friendships greatly. I would just like to hear a a argument from the other side that is hopefully well thought out and not laced with personal attacks.

[Siskiyou_Kid]

If you're upset about illegal immigration, support comprehensive immigration reform, or you're basically supporting the status quo, which means 10 million or more immigrants are living and working in US communities in a sort of legal limbo that collects their taxes, benefits from their work, but doesn't recognize them as viable, working members of US society.

[303]

I think there is a absolute discussion there to figure out what we do witht he illegal immigrants. I guess feel as though we should go by the law on our books now, close the border, and begin arresting the people here illegally.

[AJ]

@ 303

Read Siskiyou's article Forced to flee: Slayings forever change a Chihuahuan family. 

[theboss]

U.S. bankers need more severe prison sentences too. The dirty ones, that is.

[Chimera]

Maybe you should go read up on what exactly the laws say. For example, it is not illegal for an undocumented person to work in the U.S. but it is illegal for someone to hire an undocumented person. So, why are all these ICE raids going down with aliens taken away and the employer left untouched? As long as the employers are left alone, that problem will remain.

Another example: entering the U.S. undocumented is not actually a crime. It is a violation of a civil law, not a criminal law. So if it were anything except this it's not something anyone would get arrested for; they'd just get a ticket.

[Baggy]

illegals wouldnt even be noticed as far as the money they make or the jobs they take if the bankers on wall st and corrupt govt / lobbyists / defence department cronies were not milking the system for trillions of dollars.. people need to get their priorities right.
The reason most people are so worried about immigration is cause the douchebag mainstream media beat a drum on the topic so loud and constant it sinks into peoples subconscious  to the point where they manage to link every tiny little fuckin problem they run into on ILLEGALS.

[eternalcode]

hey 303, welcome.

people here come from different backgrounds and different opinions. so don't feel like you aren't welcome. you will find strong opinions here but don't take things personally. maybe someone else has been through something that you have not been through.

i am searching for real answers to real problems here.

* how did the good people of mexico get to be so very poor in such a rich land.

* how did the good people of mexico get to be unarmed.

* anyone studying history knew before it happened that the mexican drug cartels would become very wealthy and very powerful.
    * what lead to their rise?
    * who benefits from what the mexican drug cartels have done to mexico. and from their growth in the united states?
    * who benefits from so called the "war on drugs" in mexico and the united states?
    * who benefits from the mexican emigration?

* how is what is happening to mexico beginning to happen to the united states?

* what is the effect of all of these mexican emigrants coming to the united states having
  no concept of their unalienable rights,
  no real understanding what freedom is and how it is kept,
  no concept of pistol and rifle marksmanship and the duty of free men and women to keep and bear arms,
  no concept of the magna carta and the declaration of independence and the united states constitution?

The mexican government tries to hunt the capos. i hope that here we are searching for the source of the problems not just watching the results.


images are taken from mundonarco.

[Frontera]

Welcome 303

Eternalcode comments are well based on her historic experience and should be pondered.

Many perceive that the borders are not completely closed because of economics of retiring Baby Boomers. Someone has to feed Social Security (SS) to keep it afloat for the baby boomers. Others feel because illegals bring liberal voters.

Border Patrol is just a frustrated. Let me provide a real life example of a relative without providing name, rank, date and location.  Several years ago they coordinated a well planned raid, for lack of a better term, wherein they rounded up over 4,000 illegals. His/her/their reward? Called to Washington, was reprimanded and was told never do anything like that again without prior approval from the Attorney General. They had others planned on the books and were turned down by the AG when presented. We hire people to do their jobs, but prevent them from doing so. Why?

Where there is an influx of illegals the social service rate, and in most cases the crime rate has increased. Go back 10 to 15 years and study Guyman, OK, or Omaha, or the Twin Cities or the Caronlina's etc. as compared to what food stamps, burden on health care etc are today. Our relatives in Mexico are as frustrated as we are with both governments.

We have relatives in the US who are in international law enforcement. Months ago he asked "What two countries do you perceive are on the verge of collapse?"  I got one right out of two, the one I missed was Mexico.

[Chivis]

exactly!  fines are nothing to the banks..."time" is appropriate and will be effective.  I just posted about the HSBC fiasco on main board...seven years...seven years we knew about the laundering.  now they will impose fines...to move to the criminal stage.  

I have no cofidence in that

[Sierreno]

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[El Regio]

Siskiyou_Kid wrote

If you're upset about illegal immigration, support comprehensive immigration reform, or you're basically supporting the status quo, which means 10 million or more immigrants are living and working in US communities in a sort of legal limbo that collects their taxes, benefits from their work, but doesn't recognize them as viable, working members of US society.

For that the border must be shut, the reform can be possible.

[El Regio]

theboss wrote

U.S. bankers need more severe prison sentences too. The dirty ones, that is.

How did bankers come in to this discussion?

[theboss]

He stated he's a banker in the original post. I just wanted to compare ethics.

[El Regio]

oh ok.

[Havana]

Hola! From South of the Border

I advocate Serious Bank Reform, and  Serious Border Reform which will require some patience and resilience knowing that there will have to be many adjustments before it works adequately.  Like Healthcare Reform-it is a process that will one day  function positively and fairly for the greatest good of the people.  Not immediately but in the future.   And it won't be that different with Border Reform when the process finally starts, it will not be very satisfactory probably so don't expect miracles at first.  Bank Reform, I have no hope at all that it will ever benefit anyone but the banks.  Their fines for criminal activities are laughable and I equate them as significant as library fines for late books are for most working people.

I don't see closing the border as a viable alternative in this day and age with NAFTA etc..  Whether you want it or not, it doesn't matter.  Just forget about that because it will not happen.

[eternalcode]

@Frontera et al,

IM A GUY!!!

[jlopez]

I believe sincerely that the "undocumented/illegal" issue has been used by conservatives to polarize voters and motivate their political base. The media, whose job is to sell advertising, has been complicit in this effort. Our immigration system is broken, and I cannot count the times I have heard people say something like, "I'm not against legal immigrants, etc." The fact is that, unless you fit some very limited criteria, unless you swim over from Cuba, for example, the immigration process will take 20 years for most people.

The U.S would not have an illegal immigration problem if there was not a demand for the work these "criminals" do, the very same demand (in economic terms) that motivates undocumented importation of drugs. I could go on and on about the economic theories that make illegal immigration inevitable and the irrational ideas that predominate anti-immigrant thinking. But I will simply make the following points:

1.    The federal and state governments collect the vast majority of income taxes from us working class folk through withholding taxes. This is true whether the worker is "legal" or "illegal." States and local governments also collect sales taxes, property taxes, excise taxes, a bunch of taxes, from everybody, again, "legal" or "illegal." So it is purely a lie when people say that "illegals" don't pay taxes. "The man without a country" (for tax purposes, of course), is an option available only to the rich.    

2.    Generally, one must be a legal resident or citizen to participate in safety net programs such as SS, Medicare/Medicaid, etc. Thus, although "illegals" pay for these programs through their withholding taxes and a bunch of other taxes, they don't get much back. They do not get a free ride, we do.

3.    Conservatives point to tax funded college tuition as a freebie they particularly abhor when "illegals" benefit from this. However, any economist will point out that the benefits to society of providing an education far outweigh the costs. Also, give me a break, if it's college tuition that's bothering you, it generally means that the "illegal" was brought to the U.S. as a child, was educated to the level required for college admission, and is in every respect an American. Add more hypotheticals to this common situation-- say the "illegal" is also a military veteran, for example-- and  the anger at "illegals" for trying to get a college education makes even less sense.

4.    Most "illegals" I know would love to earn enough money in the U.S. and go back to Mexico (most of the undocumented immigrants I know are Mexican). The main reason they don't "self deport" (to use Mittens' term) is that they may not be able to come back to work. Can we say "bracero"?  

5.    Final point, I promise. Opponents use national security to rationalize much of the histeria over "illegal immigrants". Just look at the bad guys who have actually taken lives.  

      There are other issues I would discuss if there was more time. Perhaps others will make those points elsewhere.

[Milo]

Frontera wrote

Where there is an influx of illegals the social service rate, and in most cases the crime rate has increased. Go back 10 to 15 years and study Guyman, OK, or Omaha, or the Twin Cities or the Caronlina's etc. as compared to what food stamps, burden on health care etc are today. Our relatives in Mexico are as frustrated as we are with both governments.

I will say mother fucker, I was 13 years in the country illegally and the only thing I got for free it was food from a church.

Working in a Meet Market I was able to know the people who use the food stamps are white, black and latinos.

About crime. I have a big family and I can tell you that only 1 or 2 % are criminals, most of us work for a living.

[Siskiyou_Kid]

¡Amén!