Self-defense leader, defender of Michoacan or drug trafficker?

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Self-defense leader, defender of Michoacan or drug trafficker?

_The Magician_
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Re: Self-defense leader, defender of Michoacan or drug trafficker?

Chivis
Administrator
This post was updated on .
magic
I just sent you an email.

please give the link to this.

and please be honest in the future about your affiliations.

PGR has said there is no record of Mireles
even the corrupt state said the same

What drew my attention to the rumors was that he was supposed to have been arrested yet 20 months later he was given a full residency visa for the US.  which is scrutinized much more deeply than visiting visa.    he stayed in fresno for over a decade doing humanitarian work before returning to michoacan

this is old rumor btw.  

crime has been slashed by 90% in the 13 communities now governed by autodefensas.  there are 13 leaders...if Mireles were to turn out to be a bad guy he will be dealt with.  he does not control 12 communities.  he has no legal right to.

 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: Self-defense leader, defender of Michoacan or drug trafficker?

nacho
In reply to this post by _The Magician_
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Re: Self-defense leader, defender of Michoacan or drug trafficker?

Chivis
Administrator
This post was updated on .
autodefensas have been in existence for more than 100 years.  each community they have taken over the government has long term peace and lack of crime. in Jalisco the peace in autodefensa communities has spanned decades.  this is not new.

you should read more than what is posted by bloggers.  first of all hear the people.  the people in Mich, the 100's  of thousands of people on the ground writing of what is happening and their support of autodefensas.  

these brave men are not paid, one was killed yesterday.

educate yourself.

 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: Self-defense leader, defender of Michoacan or drug trafficker?

Echo2
Not to be disrespectful, but how is this a rumor. The video shows the name of the newspaper/publication where the article appeared on, it shows his full name, it say he's a doctor (his current profession), I'm not saying he is, but the evidence is there in black and white (literally). Just because the PGR say's it's not true doesn't make it true. They also said there is no crime and Michoacan, and Michoacan hit a record high in homicides last year. They also say crime is diminishing, that not true either, they are simply with holding the facts. Who's to say that they are not withholding facts about this case either? Given the track record of the Mexican government, you can't really trust them. On the other side, who's to say they didn't conjure up this lie/facts just to discredit him??

Echo 2  
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Re: Self-defense leader, defender of Michoacan or drug trafficker?

jlopez
In reply to this post by _The Magician_
For me, the salient points are:
1.   The alleged arrest took place 25 years ago. Since then, Dr. Mireles has lived in the U.S. for 10 years or more, then returned to Michoacan and has continued to practice medicine. He's not rich. He has worked hard.
2.   There is no record in law enforcement on either side of the border that he was arrested, much less prosecuted.
3.   There is no record that he was ever convicted of this alleged crime.
4.   The drug cartels hate him.
5.   He hates the drug cartels.
6.   He fights the drug cartels.
7.   He has motivated hundreds, thousands of people to fight the cartels.
8.   Crime has decreased tremendously in the areas his organizations control.  

All in all, the so-called arrest makes no difference to me, even if it were true. The documentary "evidence" is totally unreliable in Mexico; so, although there's a video about the newspaper report, I would prefer to see an actual extract of the article, not some blurred images on a You-Tube video, before I would even try to evaluate the significance of the article.

What impresses me most about Dr. Mireles is that he could have remained in the U.S. and made a fairly comfortable living, kept his family safe, possibly posted comments on this blog. But he went back to Michoacan, voluntarily (he didn't qualify for self-deportation). A los chingazos. That takes balls.      
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Re: Self-defense leader, defender of Michoacan or drug trafficker?

nacho
In reply to this post by Chivis
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DD
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Re: Self-defense leader, defender of Michoacan or drug trafficker?

DD
In reply to this post by _The Magician_
@Magic.  You did some digging.  But the video and the story, if they are true, don't tell the whole story.  What was the outcome of the arrrest?  Was he convicted of anything?  Surely if you found a record of his arrest there is something about the outcome of the arrest.  

All of us have read too many stories of corrupt police (and I would venture there was/is no other kind in Mich., even then) arresting people for trumped up charges.  Same with the judiciary convicting innocent people.

Who was the Governor back then?  The Atty.Gen. of the state?  What articles are on the reputation for corruption do they have.?  I have read the Dr. was involved in politics (PRI, I think) back in those days.  Was the Dr. involved in a group that would have been opposed to those in power?

Remember Alberto Patishtan, the indigenous teacher convicted of murder and sentenced to 40 years in prison based on the testimony of the son of a ex-mayor that Patishtan had tried to have removed for corruption.  The kid initially told police all the assailants were wearing masks, that he had his head and face buried in the floor of the car acting dead so they wouldn't kill him.  After a overnight stay with the police or PGR, he "remembered" that it was Patishtan that was one of the assailants.  

Patishtan was convicted solely on that testimony although there were many witnesses from his hometown who were willing to testify that he was in the classroom teaching 100s of miles away at the time of the shooting.

Even if the news story shown in the video is real (and it appears to be so), that doesn't prove that Dr. Mireles was a drug trafficker.

Remember this is Mexico.
Words are powerful weapons, be careful how you use them.
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Re: Self-defense leader, defender of Michoacan or drug trafficker?

nacho
In reply to this post by Chivis
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Re: Self-defense leader, defender of Michoacan or drug trafficker?

Echo2
I have to agree with you JTBESQ, as I read the comment it did seem like Chivis got upset and didn't like the fact the this dudes integrity was being questioned. It happened with Adam, with Texcoco and others. this is supposed to be a blog, where we put in out two cents, everything we ALL post, from administrators to bloggers is pure speculation unless specified otherwise. Magic put a post and video he found, he didn't make it up, and then the whole "Educate Yourselves" comment was like whoa you took this personal, and uncalled for; at least in my point of view.  

But anyways back to the business at hand:

I agree and respect with what the guy is doing, it does take balls to go back to Mexico and take on a cartel with machetes and old weapons while the cartel has sophisticated weaponry at their disposal. Unfortunately it's true, in Mexico you can trust them as far as you can throw them. I paused and read the article in the video and what seems strange to me is that they have other individual names, locations and stuff which gives some sort of credibility to the story, but again whose to say it was fabricated to hurt the autodefensa movement...

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Re: Self-defense leader, defender of Michoacan or drug trafficker?

_The Magician_
Banned User
This post was updated on .
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Re: Self-defense leader, defender of Michoacan or drug trafficker?

Chivis
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no you know what I am speaking of...if not look at your email, I don't want to publish here.

from proceso....there are similar articles in el universal, jornada etc

Dr. José Manuel Mireles Valverde, leader of Michoacán Citizen Self-defense Groups (Photo: Benjamín Flores)
They have accused him of acting illegally, of violating the rule of law, of being an ex-con. But José Manuel Mireles, one of the exemplary leaders of the self-defense groups of Michoacan, rejects the accusations and tells Proceso that the resistance movement emerged when the people became fed up with being the eternal victims of organized crime in the face of the inaction or even complicity of the authorities. The man they call "Doctor Cold Stare" invites the people of all the towns in the state to follow his example, to "get rid of the fear."

"We don't want the criminals, not even those with trays of bread, seats [official posts], governmental power," he declares.
Proceso: José Gil Olmos

Tepalcátepec, Michoacán - José Manuel Mireles Valverde, leader of the local group of citizen self-defense, momentarily interrupts the interview with Proceso when he is informed by radio that the Knights Templar are attacking his peers in an area of the town of Aguililla. He calls an ambulance to pick up the injured, but the vehicle is broken.

 Members of self-defense arrive at the entrance to the facilities of a livestock enterprise, its operational hub. At the same time, two vehicles loaded with soldiers pass by. They are not stopped. The self-defenses get into their trucks and go at high speed to support their colleagues. On the radio-receiver are heard the desperate calls for help.

 It's the night of Wednesday, November 20--commemoration of the Mexican Revolution--but for the Tepalcatepec citizen self-defense group, more worthy of celebration is noting that four days ago they began to give help to the citizens Tancítaro, who decided to arm themselves and tackle crime organized.

"The people are in charge. Only the people can defend the people," Mireles declares, and he adds that everyone is willing to die to defend his family, his property and work, in order to free themselves from twelve years of being under the yoke of organized crime.
Mireles is one of the coordinators of the Citizen and Community Council of Self-Defense Groups of Michoacán, and he has become the model character in the emergence of these groups in the Tierra Caliente [Hot Land, mountains inland from the Coast], the Meseta Purépecha [Purépecha Highlands] and the Costa [Pacific Coast] starting last February 24. He travels in a black van full of medical supplies, and his radio moniker is Cruz Roja, Red Cross.

 A surgeon who graduated from the University of Michoacán, from 1984 to 1986 he held several positions in local PRI [Party of the Institutional Revolution], according to local publications. Michoacán government spokesman Julio Hernández accused him, without presenting evidence, of having been in jail from 1988 to 1992 on charges of planting and harvesting marijuana, charges that the doctor flatly rejects.

 Over 50 years old and 1.90 meters [6' 3"] tall, Mireles is known by the military as "Dr. Cold Stare." Strong, bushy mustache and longish gray hair, he does not hide his resentment against organized crime because, he says, he was kidnapped, they took his father's properties, and several of his family members have been murdered.
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: Self-defense leader, defender of Michoacan or drug trafficker?

Chivis
Administrator
In reply to this post by _The Magician_
your source is not in mexico either... he wrote to me and said he is here on forum working with you..you know the guy you told me to contact?
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
777
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Re: Self-defense leader, defender of Michoacan or drug trafficker?

777
In reply to this post by _The Magician_
I haven't watched the video but I have to say that there is no right or wrong opinion regarding Dr. Mireles. They are just opinions, after all. I left a get well message on the Dr. Mireles thread, so I don't think he's some EVIL GENIUS. I think the group as a whole is eerily similar to Los Pepes and Mexico's current cartels. It always starts out as "for the people"... etc... There is no denying there will always be doubt and maybe even resentment, eventually. All it takes is for 1 comunitario to slip up and give the whole group a bad name. That's the reality. What I am happy to witness is Dr. Mireles' ability to inspire people to stand up and defend themselves. It's a start.
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Re: Self-defense leader, defender of Michoacan or drug trafficker?

Echo2
In reply to this post by _The Magician_
So what happened to "no personal attacks"???!!!??? Isn't Chivis last comment considered a personal attack against Magic??!!?? SO I guess the rules apply to the bloggers but the administrators can attack anyone, anytime??!!?? She citing a personal email, tat doesn't give us the readers any context or reasons for her comments, so if we are not privy to that email, why mention it at all??? From where I stand and see the situation,it appears to me that Chivi attacked Magic, simple because he posted a video/note that wasmeant for people to see and read and comment, and she wasn't happy with that post.....
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Re: Self-defense leader, defender of Michoacan or drug trafficker?

jlopez
In reply to this post by nacho
JTB Esq: I did a quick search on Internet and Wikipedia on the Hippocratic Oath and it was a can of worms. There are a lot of oaths, classic version, modern version, Geneva Accord, on and on. The oaths are not legally binding and fewer and fewer med school grads are taking them. They all say that the doc promises to do right by his/her patients, spread wisdom, kindness and knowledge, etc., but I didn't see any that says he can't kill anybody even in self defense, especially if it's outside the dr's office.    
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Re: Self-defense leader, defender of Michoacan or drug trafficker?

califero
Banned User
Even if he did traffic weed and got busted I think he deserves to be remembered for standing up for injustice and take this from some one that's been in the game before Dont fuc with  civilians leave them alone tax the drug pushers the pimps and everyone else that's v breaking the law. Civilians left alone will never call the law...     That's where tuta fucked up and if Chayo were alive he would never have allowed this happen.  
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Re: Self-defense leader, defender of Michoacan or drug trafficker?

Tijuano
In reply to this post by _The Magician_
I´ve tried to stay out of all this Dr. Mireles/Cartels discussion lately, mainly because I still don´t have a clear picture of what is going on here.

With that said, as they say, I´ll my 2 cents to the discussion.

Since the start of the Autodefensas movement in Michoacan I had doubts as if they had or not any back up from someone else, namely CJNG. Seeing pictures of FN2000 rifles seized from autodefensas just made me doubt.

I read the accusations against Dr. Mireles and his supposed past as weed dealer some time ago, however, I wasn't able to find any proof of it being truth, I even contacted Chivis on the subject and as fas as I know She couldn't find info either. Like She wrote, I doubt the US would have given him a resident visa if he had a record.

I also found info on this Gallegos dude and have read all the accusations against the Dr. and his supposed links to this guy, I do have doubts about the guy nicknamed "Cuquin" and if he is in fact the one aboard the Dr´s plane. I also read about the 17 year old girl and how nobody knows anything about her.

I can´t guarantee Dr. Mireles doesn´t have links to cartels, I can´t guarantee the Autodefensas movement isn't infiltrated by cartels, neither I can assure nor am I accusing him he does, what I do know is that they are kicking Templario´s ass and I love that.

I have friends who fled Michoacan and left their post graduate studies because of the tax the Templarios where charging them to "let them continue with their studies", so, as you can see, I can´t have ANY sympathy for the Templarios.

I don´t believe there is a "good cartel", but I´m not stupid enough to believe cartels will disappear, so, what´s the worst case scenario here? Dr. Mireles being aligned with CJNG? If that will bring peace and a better life to the townspeople of Michoacan, then good for them.

Just my opinion on the subject.
Si vis pacem, para bellum
DD
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Re: Self-defense leader, defender of Michoacan or drug trafficker?

DD
In reply to this post by _The Magician_
I am a strong supporter of Dr. Mireles and have been since I first saw him on the Forum in a story posted on June 13 by  El_Cuatro_Veinte.  Since that time, I have posted 37 stories/comments about him.  

In the story "Who is Dr. Mireles..", I included an anthology of stories posted on BB up to 11/26/13.  http://borderland-beat-forum.924382.n3.nabble.com/WHO-IS-DR-MIRELES-SOME-KNOW-HIM-AS-DR-JOE-HIS-HANDLE-ON-CB-RADIO-IS-CRUZ-ROJA-THE-MILITARY-CALL-HIM--tp4060934.html.

In a comment to that story, Chivis added an anthology of all stories dealing with the self-defense movement.

I believe that the intertwined problems of violence,corruption, and impunity can only be solved by the people of Mexico, not by the leading political parties.  But for the people to solve those problems, they need a leader to follow.  They need a hero to follow.  (The Mexican Revolution might have turned out quite differently had it not been for Emilio Zapata and Pancho Villa).  They need a leader they can trust.  

In my opinion, Dr. Mireles has the potential to meet all three of those needs.  

It has been written and posted several times that "one man does not a movement  make" and it has been pointed out that there are several strong leaders of the civil-defense movement.  While that is true, a movement is not going to move very far without a charismatic leader who can arouse the passions of the people and garner their trust.

That leads me to the questions raised in this thread.   Can we trust him.  It is extremely hard to prove a negative - that something did not happen.

From my own perspective, the best answer to those questions is Dr. Mireles said they were not true - that he was not imprisoned for drug trafficking or growing marijuana; that they vet new recruits into the civil defense movement and do not allow anyone who is affiliated with a cartel to join.  Because I believe in him, his word is good enough for me.

But because if the need to garner the trust of the people of Mexico, I think these questions need to be addressed.

The best answers that have been presented to date are probably;

1.  Dr. Mireles has denied all the allegations made against him.

2.  PGR and the state attorney general have both said there is no record of his arrest or conviction.  IMO that is the weakest argument that the charges are not true.  Partially because of the corruption of both of those entities over the years, but also because even though the govt. likes to keep a lot of documents and records, it can be nearly impossible to find and retrieve records.  Especially from more than 25 years ago before records were computerized.  State AG's offices have historically been reluctant to share info with PGR.  The current AG in Mich. when he was only "acting AG" was accused of charging a fee to PGR for investigative reports etc.  

3.  Dr. Mireles obtained a permanent residency visa from the US shortly after the time he was alleged to have been arrested and the US would have scrutinized him closely before issuing the residency visa.  While that would be more true today, I am not sure that was the case more than 25 years ago.  

In those days, before computerized records, the fact that he was a MD and probably could have easily obtained a letter from city officials (for a small fee to a clerk) that he had not criminal history would have been sufficient to obtain the visa.  

We should have some readers here on BB that could tell us from personal experience what difficulties and how close of scrutiny was done by US officials in the 1980's before issuing residency visas.  I hope they will post something about their experiences.

It may boil down to whether you believe Dr. Mireles is a good and honest man today.  I do believe that and whether or not there is any basis for the reports of what he allegedly did 25 years ago does not change my opinion of him.

As I said earlier, it is hard to prove a negative.  That is why the US has a system that requires the govt. prove someone guilty of a criminal act and does not require the accused to prove he did not commit the criminal act.  Innocent until proven guilty.

Words are powerful weapons, be careful how you use them.
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Re: Self-defense leader, defender of Michoacan or drug trafficker?

Chivis
Administrator
In reply to this post by Echo2
Magic knows what it is about.
privately discussed.  he is welcomed to join the guy trying to disparage AD and Mireles that is their position.  just be honest I question why say something privately and not be honest.  


as for his record. I agree with the reader saying so what to the mota charge, this would have occurred as he finished medical school.  BUT, there is no proof and the rumor began with fausto.  and presenting no proof at all.  there were a couple of articles about a JUAN published, but no records, and it is easily backdated if CT publications wish to do so.

My husband is not an American.  I can tell you that a residency visa takes a couple of years.  It is not as easy as to pay "a few pesos" to get a letter.  The US is a little more demanding than that.  If a person is in prison for 3 years there are records.  even in Mexico they go back decades now on data files.

Valor and I have translated countless videos and publications and provided information for those many questions people have, and for research groups, including a group who testifies before congress.

BUT we both have kept an open mind and want to provide the best, verified, information, and we had questions from the beginning but I spent months on research and found these groups have been in existence for over a 100 years and successfully driven crime from their villages.  I point to Zapatistas and cheran for modern day successes.

Dr Manuel Mireles had agreed to conduct an interview with me.  I sent him info about BB including the Wikipedia page and my humanitarian work in Mexico and a letter from the council leaders of Zapatistas thanking me for my ongoing work.  I believe this is why I was able to have direct contact with him, including his personal cell numbers etc.

No one knows what will happen.  My prayer is that the autodefensas do not go overboard and remain mindful to their legal boundaries, because that would be a disaster if they did not.


One other thing.  Of course there are infiltrators.  Dr Mireles has spoken about the issue.  They are trying stopgaps to keep the umber to a minimum, such as not allowing any person from outside the communities to belong to the autodefensas.  in other words, if you or I or a person from another community went into another community and tried to join they would be turned away.  People in the community essentially rat them out.    But it is of course not fool proof and every group has infiltrators even federal agencies.

Today autodefensas have another community that took up arms and drove out CT.  It is breaking news right now...more later
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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