Protest to kick the illegal immigrant children out.

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Re: Protest to kick the illegal immigrant children out.

Chivis
Administrator
The two acts are not remotely the same thing.  apples to oranges

The flores v reno settlement dictate how  UMs are speaking of dreamers no UMs


flores settlement was appealed and stood firm.
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: Protest to kick the illegal immigrant children out.

Chivis
Administrator
In reply to this post by eternalcode
the previous two posters are perfect example of the far right and far left.

one is angry because of a rumor
one is using law not applicable to UM processing.

 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
TRC
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Re: Protest to kick the illegal immigrant children out.

TRC
In reply to this post by juris
Eternalcode...I don't even know what to say about you comments and if it really is, "your belief system." I do know this, you cannot change a fixed belief system. Therefore, I am sorry you will have to trudge through life with a fixed belief system that is wrong and will cause you pain and misery eternal.
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Re: Protest to kick the illegal immigrant children out.

1966tinman
In reply to this post by Chivis
@ Chivis ,
The extreme rhetoric concerning illegal immigration from both the far right and the far left are lacking in substance and reality . When we , as citizens of a nation , do not advocate for the supremacy of the " law of the land " then we are inviting chaos and anarchy . Ignorance of the law is just as bad or even worse then total disregard for the law . Like I've said in a prior post , the United States government has abdicated its powers by not enforcing current immigration laws which are wide ranging . There are already federal laws dealing with hiring illegals , deportation of criminal aliens , processing asylum seekers , ect.  Do you think that a wholesale overhaul of current immigration laws will change anything ? It is only when laws already on the books are fully enforced that we will truly see  change . Otherwise , we are only  inviting the extremists of both sides of the political aisle  to continue  to inflame and incite the American public .
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Re: Protest to kick the illegal immigrant children out.

elcardenal
In reply to this post by Chivis
If you are talking about SIJS you are dead wrong. Ive used it several times. I actually have several clients that I am doing it for Pro Bono; and a lot of my colleagues are doing it too. All I need is a court order saying that the kid has been abandoned by one parent and that it is for the kid's best interest to stay here. Then I submit the I 360 with USCIS. So yeah, it is applicable to this scenario.
DD
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Re: Protest to kick the illegal immigrant children out.

DD
In reply to this post by 1966tinman
@ 1966tinman.  I wasn't aware that if someone broke the law they were no longer a citizen.  That is what you said;

"adherence to the " rule of law " is the basis for  calling one self a citizen of a nation ."  

I guess by that logic the rights guaranteed under the constitution, like due process, speedy trial and all that other messy stuff wouldn't apply to them.

Sure sounds like a fascist philosophy to me.
Words are powerful weapons, be careful how you use them.
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Re: Protest to kick the illegal immigrant children out.

Mexico-Watcher
In reply to this post by 1966tinman
1966tinman wrote
@ Chivis ,
The extreme rhetoric concerning illegal immigration from both the far right and the far left are lacking in substance and reality . When we , as citizens of a nation , do not advocate for the supremacy of the " law of the land " then we are inviting chaos and anarchy . Ignorance of the law is just as bad or even worse then total disregard for the law . Like I've said in a prior post , the United States government has abdicated its powers by not enforcing current immigration laws which are wide ranging . There are already federal laws dealing with hiring illegals , deportation of criminal aliens , processing asylum seekers , ect.  Do you think that a wholesale overhaul of current immigration laws will change anything ? It is only when laws already on the books are fully enforced that we will truly see  change . Otherwise , we are only  inviting the extremists of both sides of the political aisle  to continue  to inflame and incite the American public .
@Tinman: Well said.

BTW, I get annoyed at the lawyers posting here, because as a layman, they use legalese jargon that is arcane , has nuances, dips and curves, and escape hatches for interpretation wherein there is much room for mischief and outright "INJUSTICE".    

As professionals in the practice of immigration law, these immigration lawyer are proving to me (once again) that interpreting the so-called laws is a matter of who has the best skills in  "bending" , twisting,  "distorting" selected realities.... all, according to their own best interests (money and or their own needs or  personal value systems).  

Given my views above (acquired from experiences with jail and prison inmates) I am convinced that we American citizens are going to be subjected to mountains of "caca" that even they do not "really" understand or choose to interpret according to things hidden that have nothing to do with solving problems or "simple" justice based on COMMON SENSE.

Shit, now I've got to go take a Tylenol.  

Mexico-Watcher

P.S. You lawyer here, please be more considerate of dumb smucks like me when you post.  Spell things out clearly and avoid the jargon as much as possible.

J
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Re: Protest to kick the illegal immigrant children out.

J
In reply to this post by 635787at
Never surprised by the callous, stupidity and hatred of Americans for anyone else, despite that fact no one likes them either, that protest in Murietta is sickening and embarrassing on a national level, shameful.
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Re: Protest to kick the illegal immigrant children out.

Siskiyou_Kid
Those that say, don't know. Those that know, don't say.
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Re: Protest to kick the illegal immigrant children out.

1966tinman
In reply to this post by DD
@ DD ,
My premise that if you want to live as a  citizen of a particular nation that you do not blindly follow the law because you support the government , you follow the law because you see yourself as a part of a society that lives under the rule of law . In Mexico , the lack of enforcement  of laws already on the books by Mexican government authorities has had a detrimental effect on the safety and security of the average Mexican citizen . The autodefense movement in Michoacan is a direct result of the insecurity and lawlessness that is plaguing that region . There would be no need for autodefense groups if the Mexican government would offer its citizens the security that is essentially the duty of  government  . Instead you have citizens organizing to protect themselves and their families from violent criminals who do not respect the rule of law . My view is that  Dr. Mireles is not a criminal . He is  a Mexican citizen who wants to live in a society that is ruled by and for those who believe in the rule of law .      
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Re: Protest to kick the illegal immigrant children out.

eternalcode
In reply to this post by Chivis
Chivis, in all kindness am I understanding this correctly?

Mexico is selfishly dumping these children into the US and then complaining when the US citizens send the children back to Mexico?

Eternal Code - Notes On NODs

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Re: Protest to kick the illegal immigrant children out.

Chivis
Administrator
nope.
mexico does nothing for CAs.  Migrants pay thousands to cartels/human traffickers to get them to the US.  it is the traffickers who started the rumor which resulted in the children going to the US in masses.

it is the US that is dumping the migrants into Mexico, saying march into Mexico.  with not even a bottle of water.  they are undocumented in Mexico also.  try that with Canada.

narcos wait at the bridge for the migrants, and pick those that have value to them.
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: Protest to kick the illegal immigrant children out.

jlopez
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by eternalcode
Mexico is not dumping anybody on the U.S. The majority of the children are from Central America. Mexico treats these illegal children, and the adults who are trying to get to the U.S., worse than the U.S. treats them. The Mexican equivalent of the Border Patrol exploits these undocumented immigrants in unimaginable ways: assaults, rapes, extortion, prostitution, theft, murder. And that is the government; organized crime treats them worse.

But that is not why I am commenting. I am enjoying the discussion, although the arguments tend to degenerate into blaming Obama, Bush, the Mexican government, the cartels, Elvis, whatever. What nobody has asked is why this is happening. It is not happening only in the U.S., with Mexicans, Central Americans and other huddled masses trying to get to the promised land. It is happening in Europe, Asia, Africa, the Middle East. The single motivation all these people share is a desire to survive violence and starvation. Even in Europe, which is supposed to be as first world as they come, you have young Spaniards emigrating en masse to other countries because they cannot survive in their own country.

DD recently posted an article that included an analysis written by the Sisters of Mercy to explain this explosion of child immigrants. It said something very important:  "The violence and extreme poverty in the region has direct connections to U.S. trade policy, the War on Drugs and our broken immigration system."

U.S. trade policy has led to extreme economic inequality, it has concentrated wealth and political power in a few connected families and individuals, not only in Mexico, but throughout Latin America. The phrase "banana republic" was coined to describe a country whose sole reason for existing is to provide raw materials or products for U.S. corporations to exploit and market. Historically, the most efficient method for creating a banana republic is to set up an authoritarian government friendly to U.S. corporate interests. That's what you find in Mexico and Central America.  

In economic terms, U.S. trade policy has imposed extractive economic and political systems on those countries within its sphere of influence, countries in the U.S.'s back yard, as John Kerry would put it. A few countries in the region have attempted to develop inclusive political or economic systems, but few have succeeded in developing either an inclusive political system or an inclusive economic system. I don't believe any country has succeeded in the development of both systems, which is essential for creating a successful democracy. Lazaro Cardenas may or may not have been familiar with the jargon, but his constitutional reforms were a solid first step towards creating inclusive economic and political systems in Mexico. Unfortunately for Mexico, the PRI came into power when the country's institutions were not yet mature enough to resist the shift towards an authoritarian form of government. (I apologize for such a brief synopsis; entire libraries have been written on the subject.)  

As the Sisters of Mercy have found, the economic inequality, combined with the War on drugs, has resulted in widespread violence, corruption and impunity. These conditions have led inevitably to the migration of Central Americans to Mexico and the U.S. They have nowhere else to go, not if they want to stay alive. Had the U.S. enacted a sane immigration policy ten or twenty years ago, this invasion would not have happened.  But the Sisters of Mercy have it right: an extractive trade policy, a War on Drugs that fosters violence and corruption and an insane immigration policy. Why are we surprised at the results?    
JMB
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Re: Protest to kick the illegal immigrant children out.

JMB
In reply to this post by 635787at
Well, people here in the US can be world class duches at times. Heartless.

Those numnutz in Murrieta just cost us more money by not allowing the refugee/deportee process to lawfully begin. Too stupid to realize they just defeated their own purpose.

The Feds should remove the Center from that town since no one does any processing there. No need to pay for hundreds of employees to sit around an empty building watching tv. No need for small business/contractor services for invisibles either.

Also, the rumor about child status was started by the narcos. Why? Why not? They're in the business of making money at the cost of others. Human smuggling pays. And also children are great for organ extractions.

So which complaint is it? The Obama Administration has deported more people than Bush and Clinton combined or not enough? Fickle 'Murkins ...
JMB
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Re: Protest to kick the illegal immigrant children out.

JMB
In reply to this post by jlopez
jlopez wrote
.....

As the Sisters of Mercy have found, the economic inequality, combined with
the War on drugs, has resulted in widespread violence, corruption and
impunity. These conditions have led inevitably to the migration of Central
Americans to Mexico and the U.S. They have nowhere else to go, not if they
want to stay alive. Had the U.S. enacted a sane immigration policy ten or
twenty years ago, this invasion would not have happened.  But the Sisters of
Mercy have it right: an extractive trade policy, a War on Drugs that fosters
violence and corruption and an insane immigration policy. Why are we
surprised at the results?    
Excuses. Excuses. No one can makes anyone STEAL from or KILL or completely disregard the lives of their countrymen.  That is simply greed & bad character. No pride, no patriotism. A shifty human being, to be blunt. Easily bought, easily sold.

And it has been going on loooooong before any 'war on drugs'.
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Re: Protest to kick the illegal immigrant children out.

eternalcode
In reply to this post by Chivis
Chivis wrote
nope.
mexico does nothing for CAs.  Migrants pay thousands to cartels/human traffickers to get them to the US.  it is the traffickers who started the rumor which resulted in the children going to the US in masses.

it is the US that is dumping the migrants into Mexico, saying march into Mexico.  with not even a bottle of water.  they are undocumented in Mexico also.  try that with Canada.

narcos wait at the bridge for the migrants, and pick those that have value to them.
Chivis, once again you are stating some very important points.

Narcos wait at the bridge for the migrants, and pick those that have value to them.

That should be an article at borderlandbeat.com. Anyone want to second that?

Eternal Code - Notes On NODs

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Re: Protest to kick the illegal immigrant children out.

Mexico-Watcher
In reply to this post by jlopez

jlopez wrote
Mexico is not dumping anybody on the U.S. The majority of the children are from Central America. Mexico treats these illegal children, and the adults who are trying to get to the U.S., worse than the U.S. treats them. The Mexican equivalent of the Border Patrol exploits these undocumented immigrants in unimaginable ways: assaults, rapes, extortion, prostitution, theft, murder. And that is the government; organized crime treats them worse.

But that is not why I am commenting. I am enjoying the discussion, although the arguments tend to degenerate into blaming Obama, Bush, the Mexican government, the cartels, Elvis, whatever. What nobody has asked is why this is happening. It is not happening only in the U.S., with Mexicans, Central Americans and other huddled masses trying to get to the promised land. It is happening in Europe, Asia, Africa, the Middle East. The single motivation all these people share is a desire to survive violence and starvation. Even in Europe, which is supposed to be as first world as they come, you have young Spaniards emigrating en masse to other countries because they cannot survive in their own country.

DD recently posted an article that included an analysis written by the Sisters of Mercy to explain this explosion of child immigrants. It said something very important:  "The violence and extreme poverty in the region has direct connections to U.S. trade policy, the War on Drugs and our broken immigration system."

U.S. trade policy has led to extreme economic inequality, it has concentrated wealth and political power in a few connected families and individuals, not only in Mexico, but throughout Latin America. The phrase "banana republic" was coined to describe a country whose sole reason for existing is to provide raw materials or products for U.S. corporations to exploit and market. Historically, the most efficient method for creating a banana republic is to set up an authoritarian government friendly to U.S. corporate interests. That's what you find in Mexico and Central America.  

In economic terms, U.S. trade policy has imposed extractive economic and political systems on those countries within its sphere of influence, countries in the U.S.'s back yard, as John Kerry would put it. A few countries in the region have attempted to develop inclusive political or economic systems, but few have succeeded in developing either an inclusive political system or an inclusive economic system. I don't believe any country has succeeded in the development of both systems, which is essential for creating a successful democracy. Lazaro Cardenas may or may not have been familiar with the jargon, but his constitutional reforms were a solid first step towards creating inclusive economic and political systems in Mexico. Unfortunately for Mexico, the PRI came into power when the country's institutions were not yet mature enough to resist the shift towards an authoritarian form of government. (I apologize for such a brief synopsis; entire libraries have been written on the subject.)  

As the Sisters of Mercy have found, the economic inequality, combined with the War on drugs, has resulted in widespread violence, corruption and impunity. These conditions have led inevitably to the migration of Central Americans to Mexico and the U.S. They have nowhere else to go, not if they want to stay alive. Had the U.S. enacted a sane immigration policy ten or twenty years ago, this invasion would not have happened.  But the Sisters of Mercy have it right: an extractive trade policy, a War on Drugs that fosters violence and corruption and an insane immigration policy. Why are we surprised at the results?
@JLopez: Good stuff, ese.

Mexico-Watcher
TRC
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Re: Protest to kick the illegal immigrant children out.

TRC
jlopez...Very good stuff. A very strong persuasive point of view. In fact it is so persuasive that it seems like all the worlds problems rolled into one and all the different governing styles need to come together and fix it. Overwhelming. It makes me question if we are too late in the game. Good stuff...
303
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Re: Protest to kick the illegal immigrant children out.

303
In reply to this post by 635787at
I think we are getting away from the main points here. One is why is it some how not ok for America to enforce its border laws? Why does Mexico have a fence built on their southern border but America can't do it. Also, how do we best help these kids? My heart goes out to them, and we need to figure something out that isn't just amnesty. I have been bouncing the idea off of people with both view points, and it seems that allowing these people to stay for a probationary period for 3 years before they are granted full citizenship. They will have the ability to get jobs, bank accounts, buy a house, health and dental care, etc, and having them being able to pay their own bills would be a huge help to the nation.  They just will not be full United States citizens until they complete the probationary period. At that point they can be sworn in as US citizens. Also, as I mentioned before they will get a chance to declare themselves being here (think Ellis Island), but if they do not register then and they get caught doing something illegal, or need medical care they are then sent back to their own country, and they have to put be at the back of the line to come back. Would that be fair? That is a serious question.  
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Re: Protest to kick the illegal immigrant children out.

El Doble J
What I have been told by my buddies that are border patrol agents is that these juveniles are crossing directly in front of them and accordingly have to be detained. When they ask them for their information to begin the process of deportation they claim to be from Mexico not from Central America. These kids are then turned over to the Mexican custom agents, which they immediately find out their true place of birth because of their accent and so forth. The Mexican government turns around and sends them back to the US because according to them it’s our problem not theirs.

And whomever said that Mexico is not dumping these kids on our borders is completely wrong. They told me that the majority of people they detain and interview have stated they were arrested in Mexico but were allowed to continue their journey after a shake down.
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