PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-HE SLAMS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

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DD
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Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-SCOLDS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

DD
@Buela, I know you were genuinely offended and hurt by Calderon's speech.  Your are a caring and compassionate person as everyone on this Forum knows and I think you were very emotional and probably sick to your stomach from the horrific tragedy in Monty. And I can understand your thinking that this was not the appropriate venue for some of his speech.  

But I don't agree that his speech was offensive.  I don't agree with the mainstream media headlines "Caldron Blames U.S.", "Calderon Slams U.S.", Calderon Scolds and holds U.S. Responsible".  After his condolences and expressions of grief and promise of support for Monty. and promise of continuing the battle against the cartels, the following is what I got out of his speech and to me, it does not seem to be "slamming or "blaming" the US:

----------------------------------------------------
 Calderon's speech  (THE PART IN ALL CAPS AND PARENTHESIS ARE MY COMMENTS)

1.  Part of the tragedy we Mexicans live with has to do with the fact that we are next to the biggest consumer of drugs in the world and, at the same time, the largest arms dealer in the world.  (THAT IS FACT NOT AN ACCUSATION)

2  I ask you (the society, the Congress, and the Govt. of U.S.) to reflect on the tragedy that we are living in Mexico and many Latin American countries, in large part a consequence of the insatiable consumption of drugs in which millions and millions of north-americans take part. (HE IS ASKING THE PEOPLE AND THE US GOVT. TO REFLECT ON THE FACT THAT MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN THE US THAT THE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN THE PEOPLE IN THE US THAT ARE USING DRUGS IS IN LARGE PART CAUSING THE TRAGEDIES IN MX)

3 at least, to prevent that this transfer, that of the dollars into Mexico, generates this insufferable violence that we mexicans do not want.  (a specific reguest to the US govt TO HELP STEM THE FLOW OR DRUG PROFITS BACK TO THE CARTELS).

4. search then for market alternatives that cancel the stratospheric profits of the criminals,  (TELLING THE WORLD MX IS READY NEGOTIATE SOME FORM OF LEGALIZATION OF DRUGS)

5.  I urge you to close at once the criminal sale of high-powered weapons and assault rifles to the delinquents that operate in Mexico,  Cancel the indiscriminate and uncontrolled sale of assault weapons. (ASKING US TO CRACK DOWN ON ILLEGAL ARMS SALES)

6. It is now time to assume unhesitatingly and without meanness, without doubt, our responsibility for criminals to stop destroying the country. (ASKING THE PEOPLE OF MEXICO TO ASSUME RESPONSIBILTY FOR STOPPING THE CRIMINALS)

7. It is time, too,  to plant in homes, schools, workplaces, the children, with children, young people, the values that will strengthen a culture of legality, honesty, respect themselves, respect for life, respect for others.  (ASKING THE PEOPLE OF MEXICO TO REINSTILL TRADITIONAL VALUES INTO SOCIETY AND CULTURE)

8. Today, every one of the Mexicans have a responsibility to the nation. Today no one can get out of this effort, which is for Mexico, for your safety, justice, legality, by the Mexico we want. (MX PEOPLE HAVE A RESPONIBILITY TO COME TOGETHER TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS)

9. It is also true that the rampant impunity that prevails in the country due, also, that for one reason or another, the criminals do not get the punishment they deserve at the time of trial.  (ACKNOWLEDGING THE IMPUNITY PREVAILING IN MX)

10. it is also possible that the corrupting power of crime has penetrated the judicial structures that are not exempt from that risk and is forced to review that possibility."  (CALLING FOR REMOVING THE CORRUPTION IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM)

11. No reason for the hundreds of thousands of guns sold to criminals aimed at Mexicans and their authorities. We are neighbors, we are allies, we're friends, but also, you are responsible. That's my message.  (TELLING THE US YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR GUNS SOLD IN THE US TO MX. CRIMINALS).

(THE ONLY PLACE HE PLACED DIRECT RESPONSIBILITY ON THE US WAS THE LAST POINT--FAST AND FURIOUS )
--------------------------------------------------------

I understand how people can feel that the occasion of paying respect and condolences was not the appropriate place to say some of these things.  But if he had only made the expected condolences people may well have responded "So what are you going to do about it?  How are you going to solve these problms and protect the people of Mx."
So in a sense, Calderon had a perfect platform to get the attention of the world about the problems we are experiencing in Mx., and some of the causes of those problems. Probably more people in the US and the rest of the world will read this than any speech he has ever made.   He talked about some pretty specific steps. And lets face it, the root cause of many, if not most of the current problems of corruption and violence is the use of illegal drugs in the US by millions and millions of people, from teenagers smoking pot to high society elites snorting cocaine.

I think regardless of his timing, he showed again he has some balls.  Just the casual reguest for the US govt. to do more to seize assets and money and help stop the flow of drug profits back to the cartels is not going to please some of the monied elite in Mexico that depend on that money coming back into the economy.  Since he is already in hot water politically and PR wise right now, I think he needs to go further and come out shooting with both guns.  Talk about the build up of drug power over the years and its ties to the politicians, PRI and Pan both where appropriate.

Buela, I don't often disagree with you (though we might have to debate politics sometime), and I hope you don't take anything I said here as disrespectful.  
I do agree with you that in many  ways Mx. people do not accept responsibilty for their actions.  Just look at the language.  Most people in Mx would not say "I broke the lamp".  They would say "The lamp, it broke".  They would not go to the store and say "do you have any bread". That would be putting the responsibility on the store clerk if thy didn't have any.  They would say "No hay pan?"  Its like if there is none, it is the breads fault, not the stores.

But I don't think that is what Calderon is doing.  He did set out some things he thinks the US needs to do, but he passionatly called on the Mexican people to come together and accept responsibility to solve Mexicos' problems.

DD
Words are powerful weapons, be careful how you use them.
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Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-SCOLDS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

Chivis
Administrator
Hola D....

No, it was not what Calerdon said, it was when he said it.  There is truth in his words.  I gave an example of only one issue, the ability to launder funds.  But there are many.  HOWEVER.  It took the focus completely off of what happened.  Today in HK, AU, Singpore, London I spoke with friends and asked the Q "did you hear what happened in Monterrey?"  änswer " yeah!  damn calderon sure slammed the US, the ungrateful bastard"  and every paper I researched around the world said exactly the same thing "Calderon Slams ( or scolds or whatever) US"

so in a time of great tragedy, a time when an opportunity for people to become interested about what is happening in Mexico, hear the story of Mty and perhaps research more, a golden opportunity for that slipped away because of Calderons selfishness and the Mexican way of pointing fingers away from themselves.  Today it was talk about the talk down.  not about Mx.  and that is heartbreaking to me.  Do you want to know how heartbreaking?  It has been a tough year, and I am rethinking my place in Mx and feel it is perhaps time to move to another country.  Mty is where I send children for serious or life threatening medical, perhaps 6-10 per month.  I use their surgeons for all surgery and they are among the best.  But how can I in good conscience send my kids there?  EVen the parents are beginning to reject the offer in lieu of Saltillo, where, to put it politely, it is not as good.  so damn sure my heart is breaking.  not to mention I love that city. I miss it.  It was my personal treat when I had time, and then got an apt for weekends and then the devil came to stay.

You know who I am, my name, my work.  You figured that out and know I am who I say I am.  I stay in Mx for only one reason, for the kids.  I have worked with thousands, and have been a force in every CAM school in Coahuila and 10% of regular schools and USAR I have been on first name basis with every sec of education in the past decade..  I know personally top level politicians, gov officials and a man who may become the president.  I have friends from the poorest to those of unimaginable wealth.  and there is no difference.  they are all waiting for things to self correct or  participating in some effort to assure it does not correct, intentionally or not.   Remember the discussion we had about the monthly funds a citizen gets from PAN or PRI if they align themselves?  Before Rueban was elected PAN doubled the offer!  PRI did not have to, because Rueban was a slam dunk.  But that is a way they are assured corruption continues.  and make no mistake it has been all about the corruption since the 80s when a deal with the devil was made.  

Sadly, Mexicans are reaping what they sow  and no offense taken you missed my point I must have not explained myself well because you are a clear thinker with a fair mind.  But I hope you see now it was not the content it was the timing, his big show hurt Mx not helped it.  Mx appears ungrateful and rude.  and that is extremely unfortunate.  I do respect Calderon's attempts in this so called drug war, though I am sure his stuborness has wedged between him and succes as he either did not have a Plan B or refused to go to one.  His tactics of catch the capo is limted succes and at times made things worse, he finally implemented his operation to go after the critical middle layer, the beating heart of cartels, in Tamps.  I do not think he is in with or favors a cartel.  I have no reason to think he is less than honorable.

But what he did in his speech was very distructive.  Americans on the fence about Mx will pull away, others will use it as a point of argument, and outside the US they are shaking their collective heads and will not be running to Mexico's aid anytime soon.

 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-SCOLDS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

Chivis
Administrator
In reply to this post by survey
If you were speaking to me...I wasn't directing any accusation at you or about you, I thought I was clear that once again Guerro was here to piss someone off and get off topic.  She is that way, just ignore her is the best.  and don't read her comments is even better!
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-SCOLDS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

Viva Paz!
In reply to this post by DD
You can blame America all day but at the end of the day, it's Mexico's corrupt government that makes all this narco violence possible. Everyone knows it but people want to blame the US for guns and drugs. Let me ask you this, if America was at fault for all this wouldnt Canada look similiar to Mexico?? I mean some people could make the claim that those kooky hockey players up north are more civilized than your everyday hispanic but I dont believe that at all. I believe it is the government that makes all this violent bullshit possible, after all is the government that controls the people and the narcos control the government. I guess the mantra is, if you cant deal with your own problems..blame it on someone else.
"Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far." -West African Proverb
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Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-SCOLDS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

Chivis
Administrator
I thought of the canada analogy last night
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-HE SLAMS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

Chivis
Administrator
In reply to this post by Chivis
SURVEY   and to DD below

I was out last night and by the time I returned home Survey had deleted his comments and a the verbal brawl was over, but today I was able to read what was said and it begun like this:
“well said Buela....why does Calderon's Mexico allow the importation of drugs from their southern border...why don't they patrol their northern border...why for so long has Mexico allowed their country to be a drug transport corridor...who ultimately profits from all the illegal money ..everyone knows it ends up in the hands of the wealthy..shift blame ...make a smoke screen... and rake the money in the bag ..Calderon is a snake ..like all the other wealthy snakes crawling around in Mexico”

Survey; Mexico has long held themselves behind a cloak of an amended constitution.   Any issue they, for whatever reason, don’t want to deal with they simply amend the constitution to disallow it.  Such is so with things like PEACE KEEPING MISSIONS and BORDER PATROL.  Mx has grossly ignored the need to inspect and patrol its borders, and shifts the blame and responsibility to the US.  
It is disgusting that drugs flow freely into the US thru the Mx border yet when I crossed with school uniforms and school supplies into Mx, and declared  the items not only are they confiscated, so to my car.  Half the personnel at the border were called to handle my “crime” and they allowed me to go back to the US rather than jail.  My crime?  MADE IN CHINA, only Laredo can you cross those items.  I wondered how many weapons and money had crossed freely during my 3 hours of detainment.  Supposedly Mx has amended its constitution to now have a border patrol, but I have not seen one bit of change, this was for those leaving Mx…but nothing in Mx is as said.  Nothing.  NAFTA was supposed to grant me duty free status as a US 501C3, Mx has shitted on that, and I pay, I always pay.  I will not pay for illegal crossing.

In fairness, we are bigger, wealthier, and powerful, it is our duty to do more.  But you are correct, Mx has long allowed drugs to flow thru Mx from So Am and itself thru plazas to the US.  THAT is where the blame lies.  They made a deal with Padrino, who made a deal with SO AM.  Padrino was the first to do so and he got a cut for trafficking cocaine for So Am thru Mx.  Mx gov etc got a cut from Padrino, for all the plazas and at a time when they still could call the shots, before MDCs became so wealthy, the gov said NO VIOLENCE AND USE ONLY THESE ROUTES.  Lets not miss the big point; MX GOV CONDONED THE TRAFFICKING THRU ITS COUNTRY OF DRUGS TO THE US.  That makes them in collusion.  

In fairness; Calderon has bravely taken on the cartels.  With limited success and no success curbing trafficking, but at least he has tried.  And he is supported by the majority of Mx.  Though they, as I say his attempts have failed.

Mexicans at all at fault and no one greater than those like Guerro, who do more damage to Mx and never lift a finger to help,  I know those types, sadly too well.  And yes I hang with elite but unlike the uppities in Mx I can have friends from all walks of life.  My best friend is a professor.   We called each other “Hermana” I love her, she lives a simple life and comes from very poor background.  And yet, I tell her she too is at fault.  She says “but what can we do? ” I simply say “stop its support in ANY way”  start there.
As for Guerro, don’t speak to her directly just state your case.  She has a problem, when she disappeared for a while and all was calm.  She thinks I am offended by the grandma reference and thinks my AVATAR is how I look….JAJAJAJA  lets say she would be shocked to see the real me, which is the point of the picture, safety and no recognition.
 
DD:  google the world papers of yesterday and you will see the headlines were exactly as I stated.  Which is my point.  It was offensive for  most americans, and shocking to the world.  It is his way to grandstand.  That is counter productive in a climate of distain towards Mx by Americans.  Please read world accounts not solely US and Mx.  
Headline from reuters :  U.S. 'responsible' for deadly Mexico casino attack: Calderon


http://www.theprovince.com/news/least+killed+Mexico+casino+attack/5310779/story.html
Headline “calderon slams US”
http://www2.canada.com/windsorstar/news/story.html?id=af38aacc-d206-4853-9de4-ad99ec7a0fa3#
Singapore:  Mx president slams US after casino attack:
http://www.worldcountries.info/NewsPages/News-Singapore.php 
mid east: calderon slams US
http://www.alanyabesthomes.com/Links.php?SessionID=7acaf7a54e546f9e3a49d 
uk: calderon slams US
http://www.topinuk.com/20110827-0936/t377441 


and remember this?
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/98907-calderon-condemns-ariz-immigration-law-in-joint-session-speech-to-congress 
http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2011/02/mexican-leader-slams-us-coordination-in.html 

many readers never go past the headline...it is all about perception
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
DD
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Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-SCOLDS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

DD
In reply to this post by Chivis
Hola Buela, So many things I want to say, but they don't all necessarily tie together, so I don't know if I will make myself clear.
First and foremost, step back, take a deep breath.  Anyone can suffer burnout from "burnout".  I know I have at times.  I think I told you I first came down here to work for a maguiladora that was owned by a family friend.  I had told him over breakfast one day that if he ever had anything down here for me to do, call me as I wanted to see if I liked living down here or in CA because I thought I might like to retire here some day.  He called me a week or so later and told me to be in Sabinas the next Thursday.  That gave me about 5 days to make the decision and come down here.  He asked my brother what he needed to know about me and my brother told him he would have to make me take a vacation, that I tended to compartmentalize things, and when I got involved in something I was a workaholic and had to be forced to take a break.
I think you need to take a break.  Have a few margaritas, spend some time with family and those new nietos, go visit your husband, take a month off.  Then after you are revived spiritually, mentally, and emotionally, go visit some of your projects here in Mexico and look at what you have accomplished.  Look over your scrapbooks and remember all the sick kids you have changed the lives of.  Then make a decision if you are ready to give up on the Mexico that you so love.

Now, about Calderon's statements about Mty.  How many of the casual drug users, or even the heavy hitters ever give one seconds thought that the money they are paying for those drugs is being used to finance the drug lords who are causing such tragedy in Mx.  Giving Calderon the benefit of the doubt, it is possible that he thought the tragedy in MTY was an opportunity to cause some of those users to think a little bit.

As to the media portrayal of his speech, "Calderon Slams", or the worst being one of Rueters "Calderon says US responsible for MTY massacre".  I don't think the editor who attached the headline to the article (one of my daughters is an editor at a fairly large daily in the states) even read the speech.  But it probably sold papers.  Each of the stories associated with those headlines had 2 or 3 one sentence excerpts from that speech and did not accurately reflect what he said.  IMO nowhere in that speech did he say US was responsible for the Mty massacre  or even slam the US.  He asked for reflection by the US society and the govt.  He placed responsibility for illegal gun sales on the US.  Exactly the same thing the US Congress is investigating right now (Fast and Furious).  I am sad that you and maybe most of the world took his speech as pointing the finger at someone else.  More of his speech was devoted to asking the Mx. people to accept responsibility for the causes and accept responsibility for solving the problems.

As to Mx reaping what they have sown, I agree with you 100%.  As you know, my wife was one of those receiving 200 pesos a month from PRI.  She didn't think too much about it because we care for her mother who is elderly and somewhat senile and mentally ill in our home and she thought the money was to help out the elderly.  When we talked about it a little before the last election, I told her PRI was simply trying to buy her vote.  She said "that is corruption isn't it?"  I told her "Bingo", you understand.  She didn't vote for PRI and the payments have stopped.  I don't know if they stopped everyones' or if they   have access to "secret ballots" to know how people voted.  


In closing, let me ask you again to take some R&R.  You need to do it for your own health and because Mx. needs you.  You make a difference
Words are powerful weapons, be careful how you use them.
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Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-SCOLDS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

Chivis
Administrator
good advise, but I have been in Mx a long time, I would not stop my work.  My HS in Chiapas for the Zapas should be completed by December.  I want to build a literacy center for women, 80% of zapa women are illiterate.  after that I have been invited to bring my work to Guate, Nica, Iraq and Haiti.  I am thinking Nica first, and wait.  I have help build a library and emergency clinic with a humanitarian friend there.

as for the headlines.  that was the point.  that headline was gleaned from MSNBC and duplicated throughout the world.  most folks will not even read the content to try to spend time on it.  THAT was my entire point.  It was a careless, selfish calulation on the part of Calerdon, he is implusive and thinks he comes across tough but in fact looks ungrateful, blind and stupid.  because the action was stupid.  and Mexico suffers.  

as a president.  there are things you would like to say but can't.  Because it is harmful to the country in the big picture.  This is not the first time.  Look at the link when he spoke to congress about the az law!  that is unheard of.  and when one looks at the treatment of migrants in Mexico, his squaking was ridiculous, &  meaningless.  Mx was deemed only "partly free" as a nation this year dropping from "free"
why?
because of the inability to curb the violence
and the human rights issues of migrants

we don't see that change in the US, do we?  I know how Mx treats migrants.  I hear their stories.  I see them cry when they realize someone cares in a country that wishes them "gone"or "dead" .  

Calderon is a stupid, implusive, selfish, stubborn, man, who was well intended but caused a lot of harm and damage to his country by his actions, inactions and words.

Margaritas?  too much sugar.  Pinot Grigio at Christmas and new years, and an occasional tecate light.  some day we will meet somewhere in Coahuila and we will have one together
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-SCOLDS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

Havana
In reply to this post by DD
I don't know Buela:  I've read all of these posts on this Calderon post last night and today.  I just can't see Calderon's speech as offensive and damaging. Actions speak more than words.  Corruption slays Mexico's public image much more than a badly-inappropriately-timed but mostly valid speech by Mexico's president.  Everyone knows it was the media that has gone with "the slam".  I understand all about El Padrino /Mexican government history with drug trafficking collusion. I understand the Mexican tendency to deflect blame. Still I would think the US deserves to be severely slammed though nothing seems to do any good anyway. And this wasn't very severe. The US has needed to fix the illegal gun problem, curb illegal drug use like ahhhh... forever.  And has it done anything to help? No!  Is it disrespectful and despicable. Yes! there are plenty of good hearted Americans that are responsible and do wonderful things for others. You are one of them and we are fortunate at BB to benefit from your generous, insightful posts, that give us glimpses of how a person can make a difference. But there are many Americans that are selfish and look no further than making money off of others misfortunes. And also there's many younger Americans who have no clue what drugs are doing to themselves much less the people in the country where the drugs originated. So many are completely clueless. Just really stupid. Some education would help.  America could use getting priorities correct.  And some realigning of basic values and morales. Wikileaks released those hacked phone records of Arizona police officials with all those reports of Guatemalans getting hunted like wild animals as they traipsed illegally over, through desert and mountains by three different white supremacist groups. Shameful. Personally, in the future, after many more incomprehensible things happen, if somehow, some NATO type organization slapped sanctions on the US for every gun that gets into Mexico illegally from the US, I'd laugh. And I'd watch the flow of guns slow considerably.Basically, I'm amazed Calderon has been able to keep a lid on his temper as long as he has regarding his friends to the north, without totally losing it, and yelling at us for an hour non-stop.  Our days of being an effective nation are in the past.  People will tell me to move if I don't like it here. I already did move and live elsewhere depending on work and on the year at least half the time.  It is the politics I don't like.

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Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-SCOLDS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

Chivis
Administrator
then you do not appreciate how the world views mexico and what is considered a waste of effort on the part of US.  My business has allowed us to live in many countries, presently in 4.  They tell me to get the hell out of mexico that its citizens are animals and low life and their society corrupt and lawless.

if you not anyone else cannot see how calderons slam was distructive, there is nothing more i can nor want to say.  I come from a very different persepective, and today I am fielding calls and emails from all over with one school of thought...US should not be helping mx, they should send troops to our so border and make sure mexicans keep out.  and.......for me to get the fuck out.  

i stand by my analysis and that of every foreign headline in the world.

myself i am in favor of us curtailing assistance to mx.  and concentrate in Guate.  I think we need to help with data sharing, equipment and perhaps training on request.  but not funding.  its going into the abyss.
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-SCOLDS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

yankagoot
he plainly cast blame ..and at a time that will forever link the USA with the Monterrey massacre..accidental?... intentional?...who knows ..but the link is permanent

what he didn't do was say we as Mexican people through our decades of greed, and complacency towards the unhindered traffic of drugs and other contraband through our country , primarily into the USA , have now  reached a point of rampant ,epic  terrorism in Monterrey ...he shuked and jived ...and shifted blame

"Just look at the language.  Most people in Mx would not say "I broke the lamp".  They would say "The lamp, it broke".  They would not go to the store and say "do you have any bread". That would be putting the responsibility on the store clerk if thy didn't have any.  They would say "No hay pan?"  Its like if there is none, it is the breads fault, not the stores."

I LOVE THIS INSIGHT..i though i was the only one who noticed how the spanish language , by it's very nature is  evasive and non-commital, especially where acceptance of responsibility for ones own actions are concerned , ask a direct question, receive an indirect circular answer, just tell me please yes or know, is a foreign concept in spanish

the spanish made great explorers, hey lets build a boat and take off across the ocean and see what we can find, GOLD

the english made great settlers, hey lets  formulate a plan, and build a boat and take supplies and take off across the ocean and establish settlements, and expand, LAND

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Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-SCOLDS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

yankagoot
In reply to this post by Chivis
buela , i agree , no more money to Mexico, it is not a poor country, it is an economically unjust country, and American assistance is just subsidizing the wealthy who are relatively unaffected by the present situation, they have lived through worse, and lived well, besides, from my limited encounters with the upper class people in Mexico , they view Americans with disdain anyway, they don't like the egalitarian attitude we display towards the lower classes, they don't appreciate our naive concepts concerning equality and fairness, i think they resent our interference in affairs concerning the poorer people , they see Americans as "rabble rousers" and disturbers of the "status "quo", and they don't like the way we look them in the eyes as equals

I personally suspect many of the wealthy  also are majorly complicit in the drug traffic, and reap massive profits, either directly , or indirectly, in Mexico as anywhere else , the major players are concealed behind high walls and status

when the leader of another country even implies that another country in any way shares responsibility for an atrocity such as this , it is not good , not to mention making outright inflammatory statements such as  senor Calderon made, i don't see US and Mexican relations improving from actions such as these, the hoi poloi, in the USA will latch onto this for sure , and i can hear some American politicians pandering to the growing anti illegal Mexican sentiment as a direct result of this little outburst. wonder where Rick Perry will shift his stance to on this?, Mexico is sowing the wind on this one
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Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-SCOLDS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

†.©ĤİVǾ.†
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Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-SCOLDS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

Havana
Jeez, deja vu! It's like reliving a nightmare. Impossible to converse is to put it nicely.  Poor Buela having to deal with that!
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Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-SCOLDS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

yankagoot
In reply to this post by †.©ĤİVǾ.†
yeah, it seemed to me that guerra started it , but survey got the knock for it , i am sure Buela can handle the  juvenile sounding abusive  little smarty pants, but i got Buelas back, i have been reading her posts for a long time  
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Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-SCOLDS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

Chivis
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Mexico is contrary to logic and sound decision for its society.  It has a monopoly business structure that cultivates a Carlos Slim that has a greater wealth than the next 20  mexican  "competitors." combined...  Mexico's economy is stronger than the US presently, yet does not have jobs for a huge slice of its citizens which is why they are wooed into cartel business.  Mexico has a shitty almost non-existant tax structure, how the hell can you fund a army, education, etc without one? 
shall I go on?
 
Mexicans do not care about the narco violence unless it effects them directly.  Why would anyone else, from anywhere care when Mx own people do not?
Though my beef with calderon,,,,was not WHAT he said, because truth was there if one is objective, it was that he chose a horrible time to say it.
 
 
Bottom line the blame of the drug war is not with the US, not even with the Narcos, those are manifestations of the root cause, the cause is the government, the polititians and the people who allowed corruption to exist and allowed it to permeate every aspect in the structure of its society.  and the fact that in Mexico there is no rule of law.  How can you expect a lawful society in a land that has no rule of law?  In the 80s Mexico determined it was ok/fine for them to ALLOW drugs to transport freely from south american and mexico thru certain plazas as long as only those routes were used and they received their cut. 
 
They allowed the drugs to flow to the US and now have determined the blame is the US drug use?
 
I am not opposed to helping nations with money.  it is our duty to do so.  I am opposed when it is wasted and does not conform to agreement.  as in Mx.
 
I am added this link.  please listen all the way through.  and listen carefully about mexicans and the character of mexicans, their indiviualism, and the dramactic change in character of Mexicans as they migrate to the US.
 
 
From: yankagoot [via Borderland Beat] <[hidden email]>
To: Buela Chivis <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-SCOLDS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

buela , i agree , no more money to Mexico, it is not a poor country, it is an economically unjust country, and American assistance is just subsidizing the wealthy who are relatively unaffected by the present situation, they have lived through worse, and lived well, besides, from my limited encounters with the upper class people in Mexico , they view Americans with disdain anyway, they don't like the egalitarian attitude we display towards the lower classes, they don't appreciate our naive concepts concerning equality and fairness, i think they resent our interference in affairs concerning the poorer people , they see Americans as "rabble rousers" and disturbers of the "status "quo", and they don't like the way we look them in the eyes as equals

I personally suspect many of the wealthy  also are majorly complicit in the drug traffic, and reap massive profits, either directly , or indirectly, in Mexico as anywhere else , the major players are concealed behind high walls and status

when the leader of another country even implies that another country in any way shares responsibility for an atrocity such as this , it is not good , not to mention making outright inflammatory statements such as  senor Calderon made, i don't see US and Mexican relations improving from actions such as these, the hoi poloi, in the USA will latch onto this for sure , and i can hear some American politicians pandering to the growing anti illegal Mexican sentiment as a direct result of this little outburst. wonder where Rick Perry will shift his stance to on this?, Mexico is sowing the wind on this one

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The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-SCOLDS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

Chivis
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In reply to this post by yankagoot
I must have missed something, because I did not know Survey was knocked in any way.  What happened?
It is always this Guerro person.  another troll.  here to start shit.  If survey was tagged for this mess, that makes
no sense.  i saw the last comments from Survey but largely ignore Guerro when I see she is near time for her meds.

From: yankagoot [via Borderland Beat] <[hidden email]>
To: Buela Chivis <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-SCOLDS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

yeah, it seemed to me that guerra started it , but survey got the knock for it , i am sure Buela can handle the  juvenile sounding abusive  little smarty pants, but i got Buelas back, i have been reading her posts for a long time  

To unsubscribe from PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-HE SLAMS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript, click here.


 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-HE SLAMS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

Chivis
Administrator
In reply to this post by Chivis
SO here is a video at Zocalo Public Square pod cast
it is an hour or so long, but he speaks of the indiviualism of mexicans, the character of mexicans etc.
its worth the hour to learn the culture and anthropology therein..



http://www.podcast.tv/video-episodes/jorge-casta%C3%B1eda-on-the-mexican-paradox-14986109.html 
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-SCOLDS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

yankagoot
In reply to this post by Chivis
Grrrrro called survey a stupid f%&CK..survey opened  up on gRRRRO...with a stream of *^%&^$%*&(*...then it went back and forth a little ...survey deleted HIS? )(*&&&  comments ...buggs reprimanded  and warned survey ....survey replied to buggs that he? didn't start it ..and was fighting back...then survey vanished ..got knocked i think..and grrrrro got slick away with it ..unless grrroh got knocked also..stay tuned , i guess


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Re: PRES CALDERON SPEAKS TO THE NATION-SCOLDS AND HOLDS AMERICANS RESPONSIBLE-video and transcript

buggs
Administrator
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Chivis
Yeah obviously everyone missed it. Survey unleashed several comments using a string of profanity and threats against Guerro. Guerro was rude but did not use profanity, most were quotes from Survey. I warned Survey to stop and he responded defiantly that he will continue to respond, also using profanity in his response to me. I banned him for 10 days to cool off. Next time it will be indefinite and will ban his IP and delete all his posts.

This reminds me of when the neighborhood association complains about speeders in the neighborhood and claim police are doing nothing about it, then they complain that they are now getting cited for speeding (true story). I don't care who it is, you lose control and you get banned, this is not a platform for a "free for all" with no rules, it just doesn't work that way, no matter who you are, so spare me the BS about taking sides, I have no time for this petty BS!

I wish I did not have to baby sit!

Also if you got banned and re-registered with another e-mail, I suggest you rethink it, a big NO!
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