Organ traffiking?

[The Black Mask]

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[Havana]

Hi TBM-

After that April 28th incident I figured, if it isn't happening, and the cartels aren't involved, I, like you, just think it is a matter of time. I was talking to Chivis about this recently and I'm sure she will be weighing in before long.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/04/28/4-missing-children-found-suffocated-in-mexico-2093229936/?test=latestnews#ixzz1tMleajKM

http://patterico.com/2012/04/28/organ-trafficking-in-mexico/

[SRG]

I think cartels have alqays been unvloved in orgab trafficking but they wont put that in corridos...

[J]

Organ trafficking, death squads, my thoughts are there are enough issues/events already taking place, without the fantastical elements I see with some of these topics. I'm relatively sure some people with tenuous or slightly more substantial ties to various elements of organized crime, have probably sold organs on the black market, do I think people are being harvested for organs in some sort of organized fashion?  Livers and lungs being packaged and trafficked to shadowy groups like kilos of cocaine? No.  I think the idea is ridiculous.  

[Siskiyou_Kid]

Thank you, J! Organ trafficking is a well documented problem in places like India, where it's legal or close to it.

But, stories of people getting drugged in a bar and waking up in a hotel room in bathtub of ice water with stitches where their kidney used to be, are generally considered to be urban legends.

[The Black Mask]

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[J]

It has to have a buyer for it to be worth anything, and the trouble, effort, logistics, politics, planning, that goes into lining up multi million dollar organ transactions with people that we are assuming buy millions of dollars in organs, I mean sicarios, say uneducated, tradesmen from the slums of Nuevo Leon, or Acapulco, or wherever, likely don't know many people outside their social circle/socioeconomic level, much less people buying organs in bulk, neither do their bosses, and so on.   that's why I granted that people here and there have probably had some small success in offloading a couple livers to some depraved individual for a variety of reasons, but it just doesn't make much sense to me, in other contexts.  If they ever take a safe house full of dismembered body parts in sterile condition, you'll know I was wrong.  

[Chivis]

Yep  we sure had talked about it.  actually I have been driving people crazy asking those that would be likely to be aware of this if it were ocurring.  I saw in a regional paper that the four indigenous children that were killed and buried had their chest cavities opened and organs "disturbed".  shortly after the first reports that changed after official reports said there were no signs of missing organs.  I am not so sure, but there is no proof given to the public.  I emailed a dozen folks  including Havana asking if they had seen other reports confirming the organs were missing or cartels were in fact into organ trafficking.  Including 2 reporters in mx who work for high profile US and Eurpoe news sources, who both said essentially the same, one said they had someone on site working that angle but came up negative, the other did say due to early reports they also tried to confirm and came up empty.

My mind says it is a logical asumption. But there has not been concrete evidence so though in all that I know about cartels they clearly would be involved if harvesting was feasible considering the element of preserving and transporting within the time limit before they deteriorate and are useless. a kidney fetches 150K.  But I wonder where is the market?  Mexico? CA?

Preservation solutions have greatly extended the time organs can be preserved.  For example a kidney just 2 years ago had a time limit of 5 to 6 hrs , now it is 24-48 hours.  That is a remarkable leap.  But  it also in concerning because it allows ample time to “harvest” transport and transplant for those that would use the time to kill for organ trafficking.
 
Many organs are now transplanted, and tissue as well, and many tissues can be stored for years.  Tissues would include corneas, skin, and heart valves, veins.

It is legal in some countries to sell the organs of one’s self.  Kidneys, we humans only need one, and partial liver regenerates quickly to full size.  I think that should be considered to regulate selling, which would supply the vast shortage that exists.

I have heard the rumors of cartel organ trafficking.  If they found a way to kill, extract, transport  within timelines then they most likely are trafficking organs.  

Sadly, Mexico has a huge pool of potential victims the impoverished and the indigenous people.

A side note.  In Mainland China; in the 90 percentile of all transplant organs come from executed prisoners.  They also use the bodies of prisoners for those touring body exhibits.

If anyone knows I wished they would let us all know...

[Milo]

U.S.A. Israel and India are the only ones I know that usually get involved in organ trafficking.

[Final]

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[AJ]

First of all, this is not a ridiculous topic. There is nothing wrong with discussing the possibilities of the drug war. I personally don't believe that their is a very strong correlation between organ and drug trafficking but it is still something that should be considered and I'm sure that these two illegal markets have merged in the past and still have some kind of relation. Smuggling organs to the U.S. would probably be too difficult. The person in need of the organ, most likely an American, would have to go to Mexico and it would require a corrupt Mexican doctor(s). But the demand for organs always outnumbers the actual amount of donors and the victims are usually young poor people. Mexico would be a good breeding ground for the organ black market. I don't believe that they would be sold for $200,000 though. They would probably have to be paid by cash from a person who would have to sell his house just to pay for the organ and the transplant procedure. I've read that Americans are finding these illegal services online.

Too many missing people in Mexico, make me believe that the organ black market is happening there. It is one of those morbid topics that is considered taboo. And in a very religious country like Mexico, it is rarely discussed but I remember reading just recently, the Pope even talked about the subject of illegal organ trafficking in one of his speeches where he said that organ trafficking is becoming a bigger world problem.

Do you remember the Santa Muerte cult in Nogales Sonora, a Mexican border city? They are still finding bodies with missing organs all over. This so called cult is believed to have members who are politicians, kidnappers and gangsters. The cult has spread throughout Mexico, especially in border cities. Who knows if this has any correlation to the organ black market but it's something that should be considered. It's a subject that Mexico is too scared to even talk about. It's much easier to just refer to it as some kind of cult killing.

Getting rid of the bodies is the easy part. El Pozolera was throwing hundreds of bodies into acid until he was caught.

[Chivis]

Well stated Ajulio.
It should be stated that ALL major news sources in the world have people in Mx investigating this issue, or use rgionalnstringers for same.

I may not know for sure if or if not narcos are into organ trafficking, but what I am certain of is that if there is money to be made by any illegal means, narcos are in for the ride.

WHat is troublesome, with the new preservative solutions that does open  market that may not have been used.  Organs for children are scarce and have a very high value on the black market.

Previously I thought no way this could be havested, transported, tested, prepared and transplanted within the 5 or 6 hour time limit...however now at 24 to 48 hours, thats a different ballgame.  It is reasonable to think that in 24-48 hours they could get organs to any major city in Mx from just about any Mx region....thinking further having patients from outside Mx conducting medical travel to Mx for transplant surgery.  It is now in the realm of possibilty, and not ridiculous to think it is.  It worries me that each year the solutions become more efficient.  That is great for most of the world but in developing nations that could mean a way to traffic organs.

[Milo]

Well stated Ajulio.

I will love to read about the organ trafficking from the Santa Muerte cult in Nogales Sonora Mexico, if you can please provide a link for us to read it. The last 2 cases I read about organ trafficking was in New York and on the UK.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2011/10/28/n-y-man-pleads-guilty-to-organ-trafficking/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/first-organ-trafficking-case-found-7679313.html

Is a crazy world we live in, this narco traffickers are now involved according to you people with Hezbollah and now with organ traffickers. I guess drugs, extortion, kidnapping and other illegal busyness are not good enough.

[Siskiyou_Kid]

I've never heard these stories of bodies missing organs in Nogales. Do you have a link or any other info on this?

I do remember the Matamoros murders that centered around the Palo Mayombe religion and involved dismembered human sacrifices.

[Milo]

I remember reading something about that.

I tried to find something about people missing organs in Mexico, but I got no where.

[Athena]

Couple articles about possible organ trafficking in Mexico  

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2011/05/2011515153229450357.html


http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/world/americas/mexico+missing+links+to+organ+trafficking/3497537.html

[Havana]

Aldolfo Constanzo
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/weird/constanzo/1.html



This isn't new info. but apparent organ trafficking was in Diana Washington Valdez's book, Killing Fields:  Harvest of Women but corruption was more the focus.  I didn't read the book but she is very respected and does exhaustive research. we read her all the time on BB from the Houston Chronicle and El Paso Times.

Also a documentary by the same name came out

http://www.odu.edu/~drothe/killing%20fields.pdf

[Chivis]

good job athena and havana...I was going to refer to washingtons book for one.

we really would not expect to read much if at all about narco involved in organ trafficking if or when it would be occurring.  Narcos would cut that in the bud, because as horrific as their crimes are, and we have evidence of, nothing compares to killing babies ripping open the chests and taking organs.  If we knew for sure that was happening it would be a different ballgame.  Since narcos control all regional papers we will hear about it from outside sources.

what was troubling to me is I saw the two articles in the regional papers along with photos of the 4 babies. (I call children under 8 babies) it clearly reported the babies showed no signs of death by strangulation, gunshot or by knife.  the only wound was the chest being completely open and the organs disturbed.  The next day that changed to "no organ trafficking"

What that imples is horrific beyond the worse nightmare...it implies the children died from the chest cavity being open while they were alive.  I ask myself why would they do that?  I can only think of one answer.  Indigenous kids walk to schools for miles in the forest over mountains and in this case across a lake.  they are alone for hours during the trek in areas empty of populus.

[Milo]

I'm sorry but all I see is a she said, he said. Not real facts. I did a search on the names of the people and nothing comes up, no other articles about it or anything else. I don't think this is solid evidence.

[Milo]

Havana thanks for the link, I read that story and I also saw a documentary about that incident.

Honestly I don't believe there is organ trafficking in Mexico, I don't see any solid evidence, and with so much drugs around I think it is a lot easier to make money selling drugs than it is selling human organs.