Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

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Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

Chivis
Administrator
This post was updated on .
In case you missed it...Calderon,  in his speech of the Monterrey Casino attack, placed blame of Mexico's violence on the US drug use, and went further by placing blame on US drug use for the violence in all Latin America. He did outline issues of corruption etc in Mx but it was the slam at the US that was heard around the world.   His selective memory disregards the deal cut by the Mx gov in the 80s with MDCs which allowed trafficking without interference by gov agencies, through specific routes (plazas) to flow to the US.  I am yet to hear any person of authority apologizing or in some way expressing regret and accountability for that action, which is the major contributing factor in the drug useage skyrocketing in the 80s.  In return MDCs agreed to a non violent trafficking and a cut of the profits.  Corruption rampant and no one in Mx had a concern of what their inaction was doing to its northern neighbor.  The govenment in collusion with cartels, the Genisis......


 This article from Time Mag, suggest perhaps Calderon was implying it is time to lift prohibition.  Surprising since Calderon has extremly vocal of his opposition against the California proposed legalization of MJ.  He is a strange guy to say the least.  He opposed the California bill shortly after his country decriminalized illegal drugs for personal use.  Though a good idea, in my opinion, as usual in Mx the big picture was not viewed.  It is not enough to say "we now deem them decriminalized for personal use", not in Mx.  A market structure must be established or little is gained.  Yes, if the goal is to free the courts and prisons somewhat then thats one issue, but the problem with that is police, courts etc do not know how to define and emplement the new law so it largely has been ignored.

I have separated this post in three parts below. First, this link is for the new report from the GLOBAL COMMISSION DRUG POLICY-( in spanish and english) the report finds Calderon's drug war an abject failure followed by two articles from TIME-legalization and stop the war  Paz, Buela

http://www.globalcommissionondrugs.org/Report  (directly to report)

http://www.globalcommissionondrugs.org/   (directly to home page)

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

The central statistic of Mexico's violent drug war – 40,000 gangland murders in the past five years – is repeated so often it almost fails to alarm us anymore. But what happened last Thursday, Aug. 25, in the northern business capital of Monterrey – 52 innocent people massacred after gangsters set fire to a casino, presumably in a drug-cartel extortion operation – left even President Felipe Calderón sounding distressed. So agitated, in fact, that drug-war analysts believe Calderón, in his speech the next day, signaled a change in philosophy and told the U.S. to think about legalizing drugs as a way of weakening vicious drug traffickers.


As Calderón often does during the lowest moments of the drug war – a conflict he intensified after taking office in 2006 by throwing his military at Mexico's power drug mafias – he railed on Friday at the U.S. for its “insatiable” drug consumption and its refusal to ban the sale of assault weapons that too often get smuggled south of the border. But it was this part of his speech, which suggests Washington should pursue “market alternatives” in order to diminish the drug cartels' $30 billion annual revenues, that has sparked speculation:

If [the Americans] are determined and resigned to consume drugs, then they should seek market alternatives in order to cancel the criminals' stratospheric profits, or establish clear points of access [to drugs]. But this situation can't go on.

The big question is whether “market alternatives” was Calderón code for drug legalization, at least the legalization of less harmful drugs like marijuana. Ethan Nadelmann, executive director of the non-profit Drug Policy Alliance in New York, which calls for drug-policy reforms like legalization in part to help reduce drug crime, thinks Calderón was “saying the L word without actually using it. He was clearly putting a toe in the drug-legalization water.” Calderón's military strategy has largely failed, Nadelmann argues, “so after last week he's looking around and he realizes he's got to get the U.S. to do something different regarding long-term strategies.” In Mexico, respected political analyst Sergio Sarmiento, in his column Jaque Mate (Checkmate), also asserted that “market alternatives” was “a way of referring to legalization.”

See "Four Decades Later, It's Time to Scrap the Dead-End Drug War"

Even though Mexico in 2009 decriminalized possession of small amounts of marijuana, the conservative Calderón has long opposed efforts like last year's California ballot measure that would have legalized the sale and possession of small amounts of marijuana. (The measure failed.) But could the Monterrey casino massacre have been a breaking point that moved Calderón to at least be more open to legalization? If the U.S. refuses to reinstate its ban on assault weapons, he may reason, then perhaps it could help dry up the money the Mexican cartels use to buy those guns. And most drug-interdiction experts agree that if the U.S. were to legalize marijuana, it could deprive the cartels of up to half their “stratospheric” income.

Other factors could be persuading Calderón as well. One is the decidedly shifting attitude in Mexico, where Calderón's two predecessors, former Presidents Ernesto Zedillo and Vicente Fox, have unequivocally come out for legalization. Another is this year's conclusion by the Global Commission on Drug Policy, a group that includes former Latin American heads of state like Zedillo, that a half-century of conventional drug-war interdiction has failed. Yet another, Nadelmann notes, is that Calderón is a disciple of orthodox free-marketeers like Milton Friedman, who is also a legalization proponent.

So if Calderón, one of Washington's staunchest drug-war allies, really is moving toward support for legalization, where does that leave the U.S.? To its credit, the Obama Administration has acknowledged the large role that gringo drug consumption and guns play in Mexico's tragedy. But while President Obama said this year that legalization is “an entirely legitimate topic for debate,” his Office of National Drug Control Policy dismissed the Global Commission's recommendation to legalize marijuana. Now, if even Calderón is doing an about-face, the Administration may find itself with more leeway – or feel more pressure – to at least explore the issue.

But even if the U.S. eventually does legalize marijuana, that wouldn't absolve Mexico of its own obligation to create modern police and judicial institutions for once. Even if the gangsters suddenly found their drug income vanishing, Mexico's rule-of-law vacuum would still encourage them to terrorize the country through other criminal activities like kidnapping and extortion. In his Friday speech, Calderón also went after his nation's Congress for moving too slowly on the judicial reforms that are Mexico's only real long-term escape from their narco-tragedy. With 15 months left in his term (under Mexican law he cannot run for another), Calderón is struggling to secure a more positive legacy – and that may well include a shift in thinking that Washington itself needs to consider.

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Report: The Global War on Drugs Has Failed. Is It Time to Legalize?


The global war against drugs is fought seemingly every day in the jungles of Colombia and the mountains of the Hindu Kush, the inner cities of the U.S. and the trafficking corridors of Central America. But, according to a new report, it's an abject disaster.

The Global Commission on Drug Policy, an organization launched by former Presidents of Brazil, Colombia and Mexico (and whose accomplished 19-member board includes former U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan, Pakistani feminist activist Asma Jehangir, and, yes, Sir Richard Branson), declared today that the "global war on drugs has failed, with devastating consequences for individuals and societies around the world." Four decades ago, policy makers imagined creating a drug free world through "harsh law enforcement action" that cracked down on drug production and distribution. But the resulting "vast expenditures on criminalization and repressive measures directed at producers, traffickers and consumers" have only led to an expansion of the trade, higher rates of drug consumption, and has created — as seen in places like Mexico or Afghanistan — deadly, volatile new arenas for an illicit industry to sow mayhem.

The report outlines some of the unintended consequences of a near half century of global anti-drug policies. A few:

The growth of a ‘huge criminal black market', financed by the risk-escalated profits of supplying international demand for illicit drugs.
Geographical displacement, often known as ‘the balloon effect', whereby drug production shifts location to avoid the attentions of law enforcement.
The perception and treatment of drug users, who are  stigmatized, marginalized and excluded.
The commission advocates decriminalizing drug use by those who do no harm to others. Countries that have adopted measures that treat drug users as patients — and not criminals — have, for example, drastically lower rates of HIV-positive needle-users. The public health consequences for decades of ineffective policies are stark and can't be ignored. Governments, the report says, need to stop fretting over false dichotomies of "tough or soft, repressive or liberal" policies and think up a flexible approach that both minimizes "health and social harms" and maximizes "individual and national security." A vital cog of this is decriminalizing and perhaps even legalizing certain drugs, particularly cannabis, and taxing their production and sale.

Of course, this progressive agenda is voiced often, but rarely has an institution with such pedigree and seriousness articulated this sort of a vision for drug law reform. Nor is it soft on law enforcement:

Focus repressive actions on violent criminal organizations, but do so in ways that undermine their power and reach while prioritizing the reduction of violence and intimidation. Law enforcement efforts should focus not on reducing drug markets per se but rather on reducing their harms to individuals, communities and national security.

Again, the point here is a question of emphasis. Fighting gangs and cartels whose capabilities span continents requires a subtlety not evinced by most governments. Ruthless crackdowns have not worked, only leading drug producing and smuggling outfits to find more subterranean means of operation, which create greater dangers for those who inevitably seek their product.

On a certain level, this all seems painfully obvious. But the report lashes out at a "lack of leadership" at the highest level of governments around the world, where drug policies are still dictated by "ideology and political convenience" rather than "strategies grounded in science, health, security and human rights." The first task, says the commission, is to "break the taboo" that seems to encircle real discussion of mass-scale drug legalization and decriminalization. Judging from the initial White House response, though, that plea may go unheeded.
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A quote from an article from Bloomberg, which I thought well stated:


"if easy access to guns were the cause of Mexico’s predicament, then Texas would be as lawless as Chihuahua. If a border with the U.S. drug market were the problem, then Canada would also be fighting such gangs....."

read further:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-01/mexico-needs-a-better-strategy-in-the-war-against-its-drug-cartels-view.html


 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

yankagoot
yeah i thought that was a classic, legalize in Mexico, then go to the USA and make an anti-legalization speech.Shouldn't we have a law prohibiting foreign nationals from participating in ,or interfering with American politics? Mexico does, just like they have harsh illegal alien penalties. Strange country with a real sense of entitlement to our job markets and our internal policies.
 I read that the Mexican government has filed some sort of case against the state of Georgia to force them to lift or amend their law concerning id checks for citizenship status , that is almost ludicrous, that a foreign country can sue one of our states in a federal court, somehow that just dosen't seem right. Every time the cops acost me in Mexico, the first thing is donde es su permiso y pasaporte, it dosen't offend me , it seems normal to ask, but i guess there is a double standard , ok for Mexico, not for the USA
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Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

Bones
we dont negotiate with terrorists
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Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

Chivis
Administrator
agreed.

making deals with the devil is the sure path to hell
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

Chivis
Administrator
In reply to this post by yankagoot
Mexico lies on the bed of absurdity.  Their citizens laugh when you point things out and says "that's how it is in Mexico" so if they are laughing, no harm no foul?
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

El Regio
I am a big supporter of Calderon and his war on crime/corruption, however I hate it when he stoops the the level of stupidity and begins to blame the U.S. or comments on the U.S. Immigration policy when his own country is worse.

"The Tea Bag Party has a 10-15% approval rating. Depending on who you ask. ja ja ja" The wise Ajulio.
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Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

Chivis
Administrator
HAVE YOU READ THIS?...FROM BLOOMBERG..SUCH A GREAT POINT ABOUT THE GUNS MEXICO ALWAYS FAULTS THE US FOR IN RELATION TO MEXICAN VIOLENCE...


"if easy access to guns were the cause of Mexico’s predicament, then Texas would be as lawless as Chihuahua. If a border with the U.S. drug market were the problem, then Canada would also be fighting such gangs...."

READ THE ARTICLE HERE:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-01/mexico-needs-a-better-strategy-in-the-war-against-its-drug-cartels-view.html
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

Chivis
Administrator
In reply to this post by El Regio
HAVE YOU READ THIS?...FROM BLOOMBERG..SUCH A GREAT POINT ABOUT THE GUNS MEXICO ALWAYS FAULTS THE US FOR IN RELATION TO MEXICAN VIOLENCE...


"if easy access to guns were the cause of Mexico’s predicament, then Texas would be as lawless as Chihuahua. If a border with the U.S. drug market were the problem, then Canada would also be fighting such gangs...."

READ THE ARTICLE HERE:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-01/mexico-needs-a-better-strategy-in-the-war-against-its-drug-cartels-view.html
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

Havana
Not to point out the obvious..Texas could never be as lawless as Chihuahua, border or no border,  for one thing, Texas has strict law enforcement, high rates of convictions, and the death penalty (which they are shy never about using).  Those are all effective enough deterrents that will keep the guns and the gangs bubbling under-not out of control.

If Americans didn't desire illegal drugs, El padrino would not have negotiated with other cartel heads and Mex. gov. to create the drug plazas in the late eighties to let the drugs flow smoothly to their destination-- United States. I mean what would the incentive have been? It isn't exactly a chicken and egg scenario. Sure, Mexico bent their rules to get us the drugs.  Because we want the drugs, that leaves us in the equation.  Not an innocent by-stander.  We throw money at Mexico, to help solve their problems like rich parents do to an unloved child and it does no good.  By addressing some of these problems here in the US, instead of acting like we're suddenly- surprise of all surprises- blameless, it might actually help both countries.  It isn't as if illegal drugs and guns are a good thing for the general populace. I don't know, maybe you think so now. But last time I checked they cause an inordinate amount of chaos and pain that might otherwise be avoided. We could educate kids about the negative aspects of stronger drugs than pot. Maybe consider even legalizing pot, try even harder to keep coke and heroin out of the US, enforce stricter laws for possession and distribution. There is plenty we could do that might actually one day have positive effects for both countries.

Obviously Mexico is mostly to blame for the mess they are in and they are the ones that are responsible for fixing it. The US does many things right but it takes two to tango and the US is the other half. And we shouldn't supply American guns to cartels.  I believe we are smarter than that but what the heck do I know?
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Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

Chivis
Administrator
ans thats the point to the article...just as you said.

what is the culprit is not anything but impunity and rampant corruption.

period

the other factors are contributing factors not the cause
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
DD
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Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

DD
In reply to this post by Chivis
What the hell is Vicente Fox doing?  Proposing a truce with the cartels and an amnesty for cartel members sounds like something one of the Rohns would do.  It can't do anything but spread dissension in a country already fractured enough.


In one of my very first post I stated "For nearly 400 years Mexico was ruled in a dictatorial fashion by other countries and military dictators.  The people had no say.  Then after the revolution the "Powers that be" that took control of the government entered into arrangements with the military, unions, and even "The Church".  The eventual result was PRI, an all powerful political party that controlled every aspect of government and to a large extent most aspects of peoples lives for over 70 years.  For  those several centuries people were told what to do, what to think, and who to vote for.

Mexico may be an 11-year-old democracy, but its electorate is still somewhat accustomed to authoritarian rule and decisive, father-knows-best messages from its leaders (whether they are perceived to be right or wrong). MAYBE THE MOST PROFOUND STATEMENT I HAVE READ IN A LONG TIME.
Words are powerful weapons, be careful how you use them.
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Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

Chivis
Administrator
In reply to this post by Havana
I used to call it the chicken and the egg.  but it is not.  US is one market, granted the largest (Europe is gaining fast)  but far and away not the only, including Mexico now deemed a "user nation" , but aside from drugs, before drugs there was alcohol and cigs (still is a big black market of knock-offs)  and other marketable black market items.  Take away drugs and what remains is a huge market of intellectual market items such as software and fuel (from fuel theft) etc.  that is apx 40-45 % of the transnational cartel product of Zetas and some of the others.  and Mexico is its greatest consumer of those products.  With its corruption and impunity violence would still exist fighting for those markets.
 
one cannot view this as a simple drug user issue.  the real culprit lies on the shoulders of Mexico with its corruption.    We always have had drug users, but it was the deal Mexico cut with the cartels that lowered the price so low that cocaine was as common as alcohol in the disco years and drug use skyrocketed beyond imagination.  had Mexico conducted themselves without rampant corruption at every level of government (even its educational system with its mafia union) and did not allow trafficking with impunity it would not have ballooned out of control. 
 

From: wenglenca [via Borderland Beat] <[hidden email]>
To: Buela Chivis <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

Not to point out the obvious..Texas could never be as lawless as Chihuahua, border or no border,  for one thing, Texas has strict law enforcement, high rates of convictions, and the death penalty (which they are shy never about using).  Those are all effective enough deterrents that will keep the guns and the gangs bubbling under-not out of control.

If Americans didn't desire illegal drugs, El padrino would not have negotiated with other cartel heads and Mex. gov. to create the drug plazas in the late eighties to let the drugs flow smoothly to their destination-- United States. I mean what would the incentive have been? It isn't exactly a chicken and egg scenario. Sure, Mexico bent their rules to get us the drugs.  Because we want the drugs, that leaves us in the equation.  Not an innocent by-stander.  We throw money at Mexico, to help solve their problems like rich parents do to an unloved child and it does no good.  By addressing some of these problems here in the US, instead of acting like we're suddenly- surprise of all surprises- blameless, it might actually help both countries.  It isn't as if illegal drugs and guns are a good thing for the general populace. I don't know, maybe you think so now. But last time I checked they cause an inordinate amount of chaos and pain that might otherwise be avoided. We could educate kids about the negative aspects of stronger drugs than pot. Maybe consider even legalizing pot, try even harder to keep coke and heroin out of the US, enforce stricter laws for possession and distribution. There is plenty we could do that might actually one day have positive effects for both countries.

Obviously Mexico is mostly to blame for the mess they are in and they are the ones that are responsible for fixing it. The US does many things right but it takes two to tango and the US is the other half. And we shouldn't supply American guns to cartels.  I believe we are smarter than that but what the heck do I know?

To unsubscribe from Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?, click here.


 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

Rocio
CONTENTS DELETED
The author has deleted this message.
AJ
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Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

AJ
In reply to this post by Chivis
interesting notion on how mexico has become a USER NATION and also a good comparison between texas and chihuahua. interesting point on how we could educate kids about the negative aspects of stronger drugs than pot and how both the U.S. and mexico share the responsibility of the drug war.

nixon declared a war on drugs decades ago and still, nothing has worked except that this drug war has just gotten worse. reagan and nancy made an effort but failed too. and now pendejo calderon has tried and has failed miserably.

i can understand why mexicans blame this war on america. the answer to the end of prohibition lies in the hands of the U.S. government. they ARE the rich parents and mexico IS the unloved child (great example).
CHIVIS FOREVER
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Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

Havana
In reply to this post by Rocio
I was focusing on drugs and guns only because that was in particular what Calderon was zeroed in on it when he slammed the US  for the Monterrey Casino. That's why I was focusing on those "things". I was saying the US was not 100 percent blameless and maybe getting slammed wasn't that big of a deal. We can take a certain amount of the responsibility. How can we not. And out of respect for our neighbors, it probably wouldn't hurt either country if we learned to curb our drug intake,  and not sell guns to the cartels.  Really that's simple and reasonable enough. It is inconsiderate as neighbors not to address the situation and not be doing "Fast and Furious" experiments. I can understand his frustration. He is living next door to a powerful nation that put a man on the moon way back in '69 for God's sake. And we love free choice. I'm sure Calderon knows better than -US guns, and American love of illegal drugs are the only cause of chaos in the casino.   I've been around the block long enough to realize the belly of this beast in Mexico is political, judicial, corruption, impunity blah, duh, blah.  I've spent much of my life in and out of Mexico and observe this issue fanatically.   The whole drug war is a huge, complex situation. I definitely realize Mexico has drug ties to other nations (precursors count too) and that Mexicans are drug abusers too. But the plazas were not developed to get the drugs flowing smoothly for the users in Ciudad Juarez (example) because at that time "Lord of the Skies" allowed no transported  drugs to be opened in Ciudad Juarez. They were mainly for growing US drug markets. I see no point in  expounding on other areas besides the topic that being addressed.. limiting yes. There is enough important stuff to read without my going off topic.  
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Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

Chivis
Administrator
I understand and agree which is what the article is saying.  But also it was exactly as I said immediately "BAD TIME".  I don't know how to express it any differently.  What do you say to the fact Mexico was in collusion with Narcos allowing drugs to flow into the US for decades?  and then Calderon says the violence for ALL latin america is the fault of the US drug users?  you don't see the irony in that statement?:puke! puke  That what the world press was talking about after the speech. 
 
But..bottom line is the inescapable fact that it is NOT the drugs, NOT the US Users, NOT the weapons, NOT even the narcos...
 
it is all about corruption that premeates every aspect of Mexican society
and impunity.
 
It really is that simple.
 
Drug use is dramactically down since the 80s  (check it out) in the US with the exception of MJ.  60% of US drug use is MJ.  So lets legalize, control, regulate and tax it.  and decriminalize the other drugs.  Mexico's drug use is way up, I suppose that is the fault of the US as well?

From: wenglenca [via Borderland Beat] <[hidden email]>
To: Buela Chivis <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, September 2, 2011 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

I was focusing on drugs and guns only because that was in particular what Calderon was zeroed in on it when he slammed the US  for the Monterrey Casino. That's why I was focusing on those "things". I was saying the US was not 100 percent blameless and maybe getting slammed wasn't that big of a deal. We can take a certain amount of the responsibility. How can we not. And out of respect for our neighbors, it probably wouldn't hurt either country if we learned to curb our drug intake,  and not sell guns to the cartels.  Really that's simple and reasonable enough. It is inconsiderate as neighbors not to address the situation and not be doing "Fast and Furious" experiments. I can understand his frustration. He is living next door to a powerful nation that put a man on the moon way back in '69 for God's sake. And we love free choice. I'm sure Calderon knows better than -US guns, and American love of illegal drugs are the only cause of chaos in the casino.   I've been around the block long enough to realize the belly of this beast in Mexico is political, judicial, corruption, impunity blah, duh, blah.  I've spent much of my life in and out of Mexico and observe this issue fanatically.   The whole drug war is a huge, complex situation. I definitely realize Mexico has drug ties to other nations (precursors count too) and that Mexicans are drug abusers too. But the plazas were not developed to get the drugs flowing smoothly for the users in Ciudad Juarez (example) because at that time "Lord of the Skies" allowed no transported  drugs to be opened in Ciudad Juarez. They were mainly for growing US drug markets. I see no point in  expounding on other areas besides the topic that being addressed.. limiting yes. There is enough important stuff to read without my going off topic.  

To unsubscribe from Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?, click here.


 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

Chivis
Administrator
In reply to this post by AJ
Ajulio
Hola Joven!  Long time no see....
Hey, I have a Q-the last few times I have lurked on mainboard I have not seen
E1-Ardent, is he gone?
 
another Q- do you think if MJ was legalized would young people be more inclined to go for illegal drugs?  Could forbidden fruit be at all part of the attraction?  I have always wondered that.  I hope not.
 
I know it doesn't sound like I feel this way, but I respect Calderon's effort.  The pioneer of sorts.  However he had no plan "B" and refused to give up on his failed plan "A" of catch the capo, and honestly I am seriously over his big dog and pony show of perp-parades.  Parading the perps and capos wearing narco-polos for the cameras, it takes the objective out of it for me because I think that the show is a big part of the objective.  that said, i do not think he, calderon, is in with any cartel.,or favors same...paz,  Buela
 

From: ajulio [via Borderland Beat] <[hidden email]>
To: Buela Chivis <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2011 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

interesting notion on how mexico has become a USER NATION and also a good comparison between texas and chihuahua. interesting point on how we could educate kids about the negative aspects of stronger drugs than pot and how both the U.S. and mexico share the responsibility of the drug war.

nixon declared a war on drugs decades ago and still, nothing has worked except that this drug war has just gotten worse. reagan and nancy made an effort but failed too. and now pendejo calderon has tried and has failed miserably.

i can understand why mexicans blame this war on america. the answer to the end of prohibition lies in the hands of the U.S. government. they ARE the rich parents and mexico IS the unloved child (great example).

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The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
AJ
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Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

AJ
Hola Buelita. i was reading your comments and i could'nt resist. Ardent appears sporadically. he's like the drug war. he'll be around for a loooooong time. borderland beat is very important to him, not to mention, the other blogsites won't accept him (lol). but i kinda like the guy. he makes really good comments sometimes and i love getting into arguements with him (je je je).

you know, that is a very complicated question to answer, the forbidden fruit theory. the devil's seduction. i have noticed that usually everyone, including myself, starts off trying alcohol and marijuana. then something happens where the person wants to experiment with mind enhancement and stimulation and wants to try something better or stronger or different and then jumps to an upper or some kind of hallucinogen or a downer. then comes the "pain". curiosity kills the cat. but i guess what it boils down too, is that many people just like to be mischievous. if i were Adam, you think that i would have listened to that bimbo Eve? Hell No!

Calderon is a better president now than when he first became president. he has learned a lot from his mistakes but now it is too late. he is a person stuck in quicksand. so now all that is left is playing the blame game. he's become a frustrated complainer who's converted himself in believing that it's the U.S. and it's drug users who are to blame and never accepts or apologizes for his own mistakes. he is the george dubya of mexico.

Calderon thought that his millitary, police force and El chapo would take over mexico easily. he did'nt realize how inept and corrupt his millitary and police force were. there's a silver lining to this. everyone now knows how strong the cartels have become and how weak the mexican government is and how both the government and the cartels are very much integrated. so hopefully the next president will use his brain and not his passion, and will accept the fact that the cartels are here to stay for as long as drugs and crime exist. it would be smarter for him to try to work out an agreement with the cartels who behave more professionally and focus more on the more reckless and extreme cartels and gangs. what vicente fox says, makes sense to me but i'm not saying that it's right. it pisses me off that this is probably the only solution to ending the drug war in Messy Co.

CHIVIS FOREVER
DD
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Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

DD
In reply to this post by Chivis
Buela, I respectfully disagree with you on the violence continuing if drugs were legalized.  I do agree with you on legalizing mj, and I do not have the answer as to how to handle the others.  But if U.S. legalized mj most mj consumption in U.S. would be domestically produced because it is a superior product (based on everything I have read, not personal experience).  That would take a huge bite out of the profits of the cartels.  It is only one step, but I think a big one.
Most of the violence right now is over control of territory, transport corridors, and plazas at the border to cross the product.  If you eliminate most of the demand in the US for the Mx product, you greatly reduce the supply being crossed and the profits made from shipping the reduced supply.  With the profits reduced, the value of those plazas and corridors should be reduced and the violence should decrease accordingly.  

Now, something I have never understood is "control of plazas and corridors"..Everyone says that is what the cartels feuding is all about.  How do you control a plaza, i.e. port of entry.  If there are 10 eighteen wheelers of Sinaloa crossing in Laredo today, and 5 semis from the Zetas crossing in Laredo today, how does one groups' trucks crossing hurt the other group?  I have never understood that.  The only explanation I can come up with is because one group has the inspectors on both sides of the border on the payroll and doesn't want to give the other group a "free ride".  But that doesn't fully explain how you control a highway, or a city for that matter.  How do you control Mty?  And what exactly does that mean? So what are they fighting about?

I agree that you can't solve any of this without stemming the corruption that permeates the society.  But though he was slow in getting started and cleaning out the corrupt police, prosecutors, and judges should have been part of Calderon's Plan A, he has taken some gigantic steps.  The Attorney General firing nearly 500 people, and charging 120+ of those with crimes, the top Federal Prosecutors resigning in 31 states, firing entire police departments, etc.  The results of this cleansing will not be evident over night, but it should produce positive results.  (but it will need to be followed up by lie detector tests etc)

As to your belief that if drugs were legalized across the board the violence would continue because of theft of intellectual properties by the cartels and they would fight over that market, I don't think so simply because that market is so huge there is no need to fight over it.  There is plenty for everbody.  Every neighborhood tienda  and mercado in Mexico sells them.  For that matter the internet is a large provider of that market, as well as every flea market in the US.  I think you asked in a previous post how many readers of this forum had bought pirated goods and asked them to reply.  I don't recall many responses.  My opinion is that you didn't get many responses because we are all a little corrupted and didn't want to admit it.  Especially in a poor country like Mx., which do you think a muchacha making $50 a week is going to buy -- a licensed CD or DVD that cost $30 or a $3 pirated version.

As to kidnapping, extortion, and other such crimes, I think if you took drugs out of the picture, those crimes would not support cartels with scores and scores of cells, each with 20 or 30 or more people.  I think those crimes would devolve to local gangs who would not have the financial power to corrupt like the cartels now do.  Without the corruption, controlling those crimes should become much easier.  You would still have gang problems just like in San Diego, Los Angeles, Houston, Chicago and most other major cities.  But they could be managed.

Don't give up hope.
DD

Words are powerful weapons, be careful how you use them.
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Re: WHEN CALDERON SLAMMED US IN SPEECH-Mexico's Narco-Epiphany: Is Calderón Suggesting the U.S. Legalize Drugs?

Rocio
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