KUDOS to the BRAVE MEN who fought evil yesterday.

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KUDOS to the BRAVE MEN who fought evil yesterday.

ThinkTank
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Re: KUDOS to the BRAVE MEN who fought evil yesterday.

tuSancho
OK, so where are the 43 students and why is Dr Mireles in prison?  

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Re: KUDOS to the BRAVE MEN who fought evil yesterday.

guadalajara
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This is very naive. First off the feds, state police, and others involved with the cartels all have working aggrements with them to allow them to operate. then when it no longer serves their political needs the government goes after them.

That is what happened.

The government was so afraid of Mireles that they arrested him when he no longer served a need. Then CJNG rose up in the aftermath in Michoacan to fill the vacuum after the autodefensas erased the CT. Now the Gov is afraid of CJNG and is going after them.

This failed policy is exactly why the entire country is in on the rocks. Yes I feel sorry for the military and the police who lost their lives but what about the rest of the country. You cant blame the cartels for problems that exist because of a broken society.
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Re: KUDOS to the BRAVE MEN who fought evil yesterday.

ThinkTank
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Re: KUDOS to the BRAVE MEN who fought evil yesterday.

guadalajara
The Feds killed the 43 not the cartels.
There are no sides.
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Re: KUDOS to the BRAVE MEN who fought evil yesterday.

tuSancho
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Re: KUDOS to the BRAVE MEN who fought evil yesterday.

tuSancho
In reply to this post by ThinkTank
So if the government didn't fail in this instance, it succeeded?  What was its success?  And, how is the success measured?
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Re: KUDOS to the BRAVE MEN who fought evil yesterday.

ThinkTank
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Re: KUDOS to the BRAVE MEN who fought evil yesterday.

Siskiyou_Kid
In reply to this post by ThinkTank
The headline to your rant is so naïve, I'm a little embarrassed for your lack of insight.

Yes, it's easy to make the situation in Mexico into a fight between good and evil, but that is almost never the case. It would make life so much easier if it were a stark black and white portrait of contrasts, but unless you or you're family are soldiers in this battle, maybe for CJNG or CT, then your portrayal is sadly out of touch.

Mexico, rather than a black and white situation, is a subtle juxtaposition of shades of gray. The killers in a situation may work for a criminal group, or municipal police, or federal police, or the military, and their motives may be unknown even to them. They kill because they are told to.

The government that collects kickbacks for everything from illegal mining to human trafficking may appear as starkly evil at first glance, and that is a valid argument. However, they are simply following in a long line of succession going back 50 years or more. Simply refusing the bribes will change nothing, and may result in their family being killed. On the other end, the people paying the kickbacks are simply business people operating in the only way possible in Mexico. Think Walmart. When they expanded their presence in the Mexican market, hundreds of millions of dollars in bribes was the status quo and they paid their dues. Now, Walmart is evil, but does paying bribes like everyone else make them more evil?

The kid on the corner who works as a lookout for the guy dealing dimebags on the block is nothing more than another cog in the wheel. If he is killed, there are dozens more waiting to take his place. Does that make him evil? No, he is just another part of the puzzle.

As far as the US market and the US government go, it's true that legalization will not put the cat back in the back, because powerful organized crime groups have already expanded to kidnapping, human trafficking, copyright bootlegging, and extortion that doesn't involve narcotics at all. However, it will change a policy that created these criminal enterprises in the first place.

Many people point to the extremely addictive and deadly nature of methamphetamine, cocaine, and heroin as evidence that they can't and should not be legalized. However, opioid painkillers are the number one cause of deadly overdoses in the United States, killing more people than all illegal narcotics combined. This is horrible, and is a point against legalization. However, organized crime groups profit very little off these drugs [compared to the massive marked for heroin] and when is the last time you heard about a violent confrontation between competing pharmacies.

So, in the future please research the issues confronting Mexico before you make a blanket statement about brave men fighting evil. This may be the case in rare instances, but most of the time there are circumstances on the ground that are beyond your knowledge, and they often involve conflicting versions of the 'truth', where neither side is clean.



Those that say, don't know. Those that know, don't say.
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Re: KUDOS to the BRAVE MEN who fought evil yesterday.

ThinkTank
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Re: KUDOS to the BRAVE MEN who fought evil yesterday.

Siskiyou_Kid
I'm glad that you have done some research, but I wonder how much of the situation in Mexico you understand, and that solutions go so far beyond army operations to debilitate narcos that these operation are little more than a distraction for a weary population.

So, do you realize that Enrique Peña Nieto is among the most corrupt politicians in Mexico? That is an important concept in a country awash with corruption.

Do you know why the Grupo Atlacomulco ordered EPN to reign in the leadership of Mexico's most prominent organized crime groups?

The situation in Jalisco, Michoacan, and Guerrero involves organized crime, but there is much more to the story than the production of narcotics. Do you understand what's at stake there, and why the federal government is content with a dominant organized crime group in control, just as long as they're dominant?

In Nuevo Leon, Coahuila,  and Tamaulipas , the dominant criminal group Los Zetas and Cartel del Golfo have been splintered and decimated by arrests and infighting, yet crime at all levels of society is worse than ever. Some of this involves the well-known concept of many smaller groups fighting for control after their leader is removed, but there is an underlying force at work here. Can you identify that underlying force and the goal of their agenda?

People can believe they are working for the common good of Mexico, but what is that common good? Is it a reduction in narco violence between competing gangs? Is it a reduction in kidnapping and extortion by various police agencies? What about high-level government corruption that leaves 2/3 of the country in abject poverty despite vast riches of natural resources? What about the monopolies owned by some of the wealthiest families in Mexico that siphon of what little money the working poor have? Does Carlos Slim really deserve to be the richest man in the world?
Those that say, don't know. Those that know, don't say.
DD
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Re: KUDOS to the BRAVE MEN who fought evil yesterday.

DD
In reply to this post by ThinkTank
Great discussion guys.  This is what the Forum is about.

If I have time, I may throw in a little of my thoughts later.
Words are powerful weapons, be careful how you use them.
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Re: KUDOS to the BRAVE MEN who fought evil yesterday.

manuel2984ny
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Re: KUDOS to the BRAVE MEN who fought evil yesterday.

guadalajara
Exactamente!
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Re: KUDOS to the BRAVE MEN who fought evil yesterday.

tuSancho
In reply to this post by ThinkTank
Wow, think tank, shoot the messenger.  Respectfully, I believe your thoughts get emotionally filtered enough to lose you sense.  You couldn't answer my question so you lashed out.  It troubles me that it is possible for people with such mixed up logic tied to what borders on unstable emotions can actually carry lethal weapons and be in society... scarry.

But apart from that S-Kid really said a lot of well articulated summary of how things are and how they work.  It is clear there are many agendas across the board.  His mention of the Atlacomulco group is so important and is all but lost on most observers.

Less than 48 hours before the CJGN attacks and the helicopter shoot down, EPN was celebrating the opening of the new toll periferico around Mazatlan with Carlos Slim who built and operates the toll road.  They were accompanied by MoLoVa, Sinaloa's governor.  If EPN was in control, and the Mexican government was fighting the good fight, why was EPN not in DF at the helm and caught with his pants down?

The intelligence of the cartel(s), overall, is greater than the Government's at all levels. Because the population does not trust Mexico's security forces and the corruption tying the two together their real ability to collect intelligence is limited and hampered.  The population does not work with the police.

Because of poverty, patronismo, and corruption woven through the entire society, relationships between people and groups of people are fragmented and multi-faceted.  Mexico needs to be understood from its evolution since pre-Columbian times.

Non Mexicans do not think like Mexicans, and vice versa.  So, think tank, be careful if your research, experience and knowledge do not include a broad perspective of Mexico and its people over time.

It is easy to understand why a kid from the streets or rancho would associate with cartels and cartel culture.  If he had a job offer from Carlos Slim or an education like EPN, he probably would ignore the cartel and seek success for himself and his family... like is the culture of Mexico across the board.

Trying to 'computerize' the analysis of why Mexico is the way it is, by reducing it to a binary of 0 or 1, yes or no, true or false, good or bad... has led you astray of really clear thinking.  You proved this by not being able to answer the dichotomy of success vs unsuccessful.

Instead, take into account actual facts instead of their philosophical meanings.  Facts can be analysed through philosophical filters but to scramble facts with philosophy leads to confusion... sort of like the children's 'telephone' game.  Put fact gathering ahead of philosophical filtering.

Thanks, think tank, for stirring the pot and like said above, providing a good forum topic.  I wish you well.
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Re: KUDOS to the BRAVE MEN who fought evil yesterday.

tuSancho
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orale
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Re: KUDOS to the BRAVE MEN who fought evil yesterday.

ThinkTank
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Re: KUDOS to the BRAVE MEN who fought evil yesterday.

Jose1
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DD
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Re: KUDOS to the BRAVE MEN who fought evil yesterday.

DD
@ kid.  You sure had me fooled.  All these years reading your comments and debating and discussing issues with you, I had you pegged as one of the top 5 intelligent and articulate contributors to the Forum.  But finding out you are giant bleeding heart liberal and voted for Obama was quite a shock.  

I almost laughed out loud when i read that.
Words are powerful weapons, be careful how you use them.
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Re: KUDOS to the BRAVE MEN who fought evil yesterday.

Chivis
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In reply to this post by tuSancho
like button activated here you just can't see it
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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