How to eliminate the cartels ?

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How to eliminate the cartels ?

Matanzas
There is a simple equation to resolve before ever thinking of Mexico survival as a state, and the eventual contamination of all the north and central American sub-continent. It's the basic supply and demand thing. For years now we have focused unsuccessfully on the supply side. What we failed to understand, is that our struggle against supply is misdirected. When there is demand, supply will be there, that's the law of commerce. In a parallel effort we have criminalized the use of drugs, creating the same criminal society in the Americas than the 1930's alcohol prohibition did in the US, but now at a continent and more deadly level.
Indeed, there is only one way to get rid of the entire problem, it's either legalization of drugs (health care rather than criminal issue) or physical elimination of the buyers. For the former, this will require a change of mentalities and political agendas. Not close to happen. For the later, it will take some patriotic Mexicans to lace a few cocaine shipments with slow but deadly poisons. When users will die randomly from their hobby and be reported on the news channels, it will send the cartels to the floor. Castor bean oil anyone?
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Re: How to eliminate the cartels ?

BadMofo
I doubt that would work and besides you are advocating killing innocent people. Isn't there enough of that going on? I like an economic blockade of all US trade with Mexico including tourism better. OK, since there is zero chance of legalization happening in the near future in the U.S., other measures need to be taken. The Mexican Gov't and military is terminally inept and corrupt. They must realize it and bring in outside help in the form of special forces/paramilitary quietly from the US and abroad. For a small investment relative to what the drug war costs the country run terms of lost revenues from tourism, etc..they can beat that cartels at their own game and cut the heads-off of their enemies.
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Re: How to eliminate the cartels ?

Ernie N. Curtiss
In reply to this post by Matanzas
I don't think you need  to eliminate customers. I agree with you that they should be prosecuted though. Maybe fines and some hard work would be enough, I think.

In all case, the long lasting tolerance must be eliminated, not the people.
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Re: How to eliminate the cartels ?

Matanzas
In reply to this post by Matanzas
@ BadMofo and Earnie,
I appreciate your concern for our addicted nationals. I've been there in my college years, it was many years ago. In our current web 2.0 time, can anyone pretend he/she doesn't know? What is innocence? Could any diamond buyer not know about Sierra Leone's war atrocities in the last decades? Sierra Leone's natives did wish diamonds could have been made deadly for the end user. Now think of what a desperate Mexican could do to save his country or simply his family if he/she has the opportunity.
The war against the supply has been lost a long time ago, and has never be nearing success. Once in a while some official from producing or consuming countries will claim a small victory here or there to make them look good to taxpayers without changing anything in the game aside of players -how long do you think it will take for La Barbie to be replaced? What we know, is that this old war costs a fortune to our nations.
Suggesting the involvement of our military implies an act of war against an ally, and covert operations against the cartels are unsuccessful because of the widely corrupted politician class, police and army in Mexico and may be ;) the US. And well, don't you think our country has already been involved in too many conflicts, with a way too high cost in lives and dollars for such meager results?
Only action against the demand is effective.
Penalizing the use of drugs, even increasing the sentences does not work and cost us a fortune: $50k by year and inmate plus the cost of LE, and we are already the country with the highest percentage of population incarcerated. The best way to control the problem is by a combination of legalization and health control measures. But if this works in Amsterdam, this is politically dangerous for less permissive democracies, and it won't happen here in the US with the current political trend.
So in my post, I was positioning myself on the southern side of the border and looking north, knowing that the problem's root is there and no one is willing to do anything about it. It could make me mad, couldn't it?
Folks, this is about ideas to stop the destruction of a charming country, and the livelihood of honest folks in MX. Please feel free to add your suggestions, they are welcome.
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Prop 19 will kill the beast

Matanzas
gtm
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Re: How to eliminate the cartels ?

gtm
In reply to this post by Matanzas
Trying to reduce supply simple ain't going to do the trick - humans have been getting 'high' on intoxicating substances for 1000's of years & 'education' has been tried many times before with no great success. The fact is organised crime is a function of prohibition. Look at the experience of the US & the 18th Amendment. As soon as booze was made illegal the gangsters moved in.

That being said the situation in Mexico has clearly got wildly out of control & I'd say the Cartels have become something 'more' (& 'worse') than 'traditional' organised crime formations like the Cosa Nostra. how to eliminate them? No easy answer I'm afraid but here are few ideas:-

1) The Mexican government have lost their monopoly on the use of force & they need to try & recover this. I'd suggest some kind of temporary Iraq style 'surge' might stabilize the border areas for long enough to get to grips with the whole situation. The most disgusting players such as the Zetas should be eliminated as quickly as 'possible'.

2) Police Corruption - a massive problem. Solutions? A massive top to tail clear out of all the policemen involved with the Cartels should be attempted. Furthermore, new policemen should not come from the areas they police & should be regularly transferred (this is how the Irish Police prevent corruption). They should be paid much better & given incentives not to go the 'wrong way'.

3) Social reform - I find it astonishing that so many young mexican men (& women) find the idea of becoming a sicario an attractive proposition. The pay isn't great & its clearly a massively dangerous job. These people need to be found jobs with decent wages. If this happens then the Cartel bosses wouldn't have a seemingly endless supply of gunmen & their power would be greatly diminished.

4) It's clear that some form of unofficial 'deal' is going to have to be brokered with some of the Cartel bosses. I appreciate that that a deeply distasteful prospect but nonetheless it's going to have to be done. Calderons war has achieved nothing so far.
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Re: How to eliminate the cartels ?

Matanzas
Dear gtm,
thanks for contributing to the multi billion dollar question.
Drug culture cannot be eradicated, and that's OK. I love wine and would fight to death or at least exhaustion for it. But history doesn't justify abuse and you will agree on that: When it takes slavery for one, it can't make another one's pleasure. So from a "South of the Border" point of view these bloody local excesses justify a hypothetical bloody retaliation against the demand. It is also true that prohibition does not solve the problem. We have had 6 clowns named "drug czars"and the result is zero on the drug side and a lot on the cost and bragging side.
The surge is already happening, since Calderon took office. The result is negative, since it didn't curb the cartels' violence, does not have support of a scarred population, and it might be perceived biased in favor of the Sinaloas (even with the death of Coronel.) Also, what will happen when Calderon leaves office? Could it become an "etat de siege" where local governance is replaced by the army? Who wants to go there?
Police corruption. It is a fact, cops are not payed well and have a culture of taking bribes. The federal police has been cut by 3,000 lately. But the main problem are the local cops: municipal and state. Just look at what happened to mayor Edelmiro Cavazos! This not Ireland, this is a federal country, you can't move these guys to Chiapas. Now, how much should you pay them so they won't work a second shift for the cartels?
Re. the employment situation, you are very true. And this comes back to us north of the border: do we want the cheapest junk from China - and pretty soon from Vietnam since the Chinese are trying to get a decent life- or do we want to seed our neighboring Central America and Mexico with industries and development? I remember in a past life working with maquilas in C.Juarez, it was great quality and great people. Social change in MX is possible but it will take a US political will, with different import taxes with Asia etc.. Then a middle class can develop in MX instead of the current system of "have" of "have nothing to lose".
Deals with cartels? You are very right. Calderon's war has achieved nothing so far. He has kicked the ant nest and got all the critters crazy. Sounds like Af-Pak. You get some heads and everyone goes eager to replace them. They will go back to a PRI style deals with some cartels, with the insurance the zetas and others are tamed. The same way Karzai will deal with the Taliban. That's real politic.
My recipe?
1) legalize drugs in the US/EU and make it a heath care issue like obesity or alcoholism. First get prop. 19th in CA going through, and we will eventually cut 50% of the cartels' revenue and develop legal means of living for folks in the "golden triangle" in MX. Organic stuff.
2) cut deals now between the MX government and some cartels in exchange for social peace in MX and central and south America.
3) change our economic focus from Asia and Middle East to the Americas.
That's a dream. Cheers...
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Re: How to eliminate the cartels ?

edricomendez
In reply to this post by BadMofo
actually badmofo if you consume cocaine you're not innocent. You're complicit in an industry that you KNOW is destroying communities, lives, countries. ive done my fair share of the stuff in my time and knew it was illegal and knew how it got from A to B. Doing something for fun whilst turning a blind eye to the cost of your fun doesnt make you innocent. its not a bad idea to lace it with poison, its harsh but no less harsh than mounting a war on drugs that kills thousands of innocents and less than innocents in the countries along the supply route. the health issue never has very much effect when trying to stop people from doing drugs. A stronger more concerted effort into publicising the devastating effects of the trade might be the next step. Unfortunately cocaine users tend to be about as selfish and ignorant as people can get.
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Re: How to eliminate the cartels ?

Matanzas
Good man. I very much agree.
I was born after WW2 a few miles from a German concentration camp. I was a kid when my dad brought me there to show me what you don't want to imagine. I learned. There are no innocents, there are only victims, executioners and profiteers. Choose your side.
"Poor Mexico, so far from God, so close to the United States", Porfirio Diaz, 1910.
Saludos y paz
gtm
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Re: How to eliminate the cartels ?

gtm
In reply to this post by edricomendez
Feeding adulterated coke into the US market isn't the answer. Firstly it's morally repugnant (one makes ones self as bad as the cartels) & secondly anyone involved would be guilty of assault & perhaps murder.
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Re: How to eliminate the cartels ?

Matanzas
gtm, this is a moral opinion, not a justification you gave us. Also, let's make it clear: I AM NOT advocating any reprisal action from patriotic Mexican citizens against my addicted fellow citizens, even if these fellow citizens are selfish crackheads who are confused between gum and coke. People committing that totally unacceptable crime against our nation should be prosecuted by the Mexican authorities and be punished with a minimum sentence of 3 slaps on the hand. That's more than the sentence  given to the US and British brass who organized the carpet-bombing of Dresden and knowingly killed civilians to instill terror in the German population. Actually, they are heroes here. Now, can you define what is morally acceptable?
If you read my initial posting, I was looking from the perspective of someone living, working and raising a family south of the border. What could he/she think about options to fix the mess his/her country is? From my northern side, it's all good and nice. I can live, work and raise my kids without fears. Why would I care?
May be Mexicans should elect the PRI back to government, cut deals with a couple of cartels, let them eliminate the anarchic street gangs and the Zs and the flow of drugs to the States will be no more bloody. Because technically it's adulteration, blood in the drug.
Namaste.
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Re: How to eliminate the cartels ?

Pink
In reply to this post by Matanzas
Nothing wrong with dreaming.  I agree with all your points.  What about the prison system here in the USA?
If legalization, what will we do with those serving time now?  Maybe they could go work on communal marijuana farms.  Legalization of  marijuana, would eventually stop the growing for export in Mexico.  The money would not flow south anymore.   We could easily grow at home.  Or do you propose all drugs?  That would wipe out the cartels for sure.  Now our government will want a sin tax on this for the money ostensibly to go for drug abuse education.  Wow!

Your point about the China trade is very, very correct.  Do you remember Ross Perot's bid for the presidency.  Little did he know that the "Giant sucking sound of jobs leaving this country and going to Mexico"  because of NAFTA would be forshadowed by a very liberal trade policy with China.  Well Wal-Mart
needed to replace their store signs of the '80s.  Remember, "MADE IN USA" banners hung from the ceilings of all their stores.  They wanted to sell what Americans wanted- cheap plastic items made in China, that eventually evolved into almost everything Wal-Mart sells.  Hindsight is 20/20.   I can imagine the incredible powerhouse of North America.  Mexico as a manufacturing powerhouse for US.  There was a time, I favored free trade.  But I now think that was a mistake.  Protection is necessary when the playing field is not level.
Granted there have been some benefits with China open to US, but look at our poor neighbor.  You know Mexico is beautiful.  You know the Mexican people are wonderful.  The illegal immigration problem would not be if they had jobs and future.  They would not leave family and culture to come here.  I would even go there.
 
me
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Re: How to eliminate the cartels ?

me
In reply to this post by Matanzas
#1:  Take control of Antipalma Super Max prison.  
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Re: How to eliminate the cartels ?

tina moRe
In reply to this post by Matanzas
It appears that you do know quite a bit about the history and government of Mexico. I must add that although I dont have this knowledge, it is a ridiculous idea to legalize marijuana if not medically necessary by Rx only. I don't believe the consumption would end with legalization of this drug though. Illicit drugs seem to take on trends, the latest fad-high. Methamphetamine as of late. Drug addicts want what is considered the newest and best high. I'm sure you've seen the destruction of this particular drug. Has drug education and rehab helped everyone who ever tried it? I would say....not. Recovery is a decision that takes a lot of work and many people just plain and simple, love the drugs more than they love any thing or anyone else. If they are lucky enough to get out alive, they may tire of "the life" or find God, whatever. Meanwhile the cost to us and our communities and their families is so destructive that I don't want to take a chance on myself or family's safety being affected, any more that it is now. What makes you think that some day we wouldn't be facing the same chaos and death that the drug wars/lords of MX? No thanks. Drug addicts are irresponsible, selfish, self loathing individuals who need to be taught the value of a human life, especially theirs. Eradication, probably not....but legalization, definitely NOT!
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Re: How to eliminate the cartels ?

oliver
I think we should start a marketing campaign in the US  . . . "Grow Your Own"
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Re: How to eliminate the cartels ?

Juan
In reply to this post by Matanzas
All you have to do is decriminalize marijuana (not legalize - no taxes, no new government organizations, could always be reversed easily if things do go right with it) and a big chunk of cartel profits will go poof in about 90 days. That's how long it will take users to figure out how to grow it and get a crop in. After that, marijuana will be so cheap that even if these cartels did get tons of it across the border, it would not be worth the effort to do so...if that doesn't crater them in a couple of years then go for decriminalizing small amounts of other drugs. The added side effects are that out jails and prisons would soon empty out of about 50% of the inmates along with all the lowered costs and the police would have more time to pursue real crimes instead of chasing college kids down for having a joint! More bang for our police bucks!
For more on this idea:<http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=3381>
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Re: How to eliminate the cartels ?

Juan
In reply to this post by Matanzas
You need some professional mental help dude!
DTC
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Re: How to eliminate the cartels ?

DTC
In reply to this post by Matanzas
This argument has been made for the last 40 years the problem has been that societys on the whole expect citizens to obey laws,second the vast majority of responsible people do not use illegal drugs,the growth of a drug culture in the US has taken place in the last 40 years and is a result of our accelerating welfare state,our economic decline will stress the hell out of tolerance for a high non productive sub culture. It may come to pass that our political leadership will dicourage illegal drug usage by cutting gov benefits what a horrible idea.
DTC
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Re: How to eliminate the cartels ?

DTC
In reply to this post by Matanzas
This argument has been made for the last 40 years the problem has been that societys on the whole expect citizens to obey laws,second the vast majority of responsible people do not use illegal drugs,the growth of a drug culture in the US has taken place in the last 40 years and is a result of our accelerating welfare state,our economic decline will stress the hell out of tolerance for a high non productive sub culture. It may come to pass that our political leadership will dicourage illegal drug usage by cutting gov benefits what a horrible idea.
DTC
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Re: How to eliminate the cartels ?

DTC
In reply to this post by Matanzas
This argument has been made for the last 40 years the problem has been that societys on the whole expect citizens to obey laws,second the vast majority of responsible people do not use illegal drugs,the growth of a drug culture in the US has taken place in the last 40 years and is a result of our accelerating welfare state,our economic decline will stress the hell out of tolerance for a high non productive sub culture. It may come to pass that our political leadership will dicourage illegal drug usage by cutting gov benefits what a horrible idea.
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