Fentanyl

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Re: Fentanyl

canadiana
Administrator
This post was updated on .
Of course OD's and crime went down when legalized but who pays for it?Taxpayers and does it relieve addicts of their responsibilities if not to society,what about their children and family and the damage done there?Does legalization prevent them from 'recovering'?I read somewhere in Vancouver where they give 'free' prescribed heroin and it costs $27,000 a year per addict for their daily dose.As  far as some drugs being more 'functional' for everyday life as was pointed out by IVAN I agree.I would rather deal with an opiate addict than a drunk whom would be more aggressive but I wouldn't trust my purse being around an opiate addict so it's how you look at it.No matter what drug is used for self medication I believe it's a coping mechanism to prevent people from dealing with whatever bothers them.Smoking cigarettes are also a coping mechanism even though you don't get high but you want 1  more when stressed but I'm starting to ramble here.
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Re: Fentanyl

El Guero
In reply to this post by IVAN CHESNOKOV
Ivan...So correct on the level of damage that alcohol reaps on society at large.  The irony of it being the only legal drug is insane.  Socially and physiologically it is the most damaging drug IMO.
CRUSH YOUR ENEMIES!  GRIND THEIR BONES INTO DIRT!  MAKE THEM REGRET THEY WERE EVER BORN!
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Re: Fentanyl

Mica
In reply to this post by Ciro
When California legalized marijuana, the black market increased.  

Every scenario is different and the objective of the research firm has a predefined outcome they are searching for.

I read that same argument a lot, but time has determined that to be incorrect.  And they say America's war on drugs was a failure.  It appears to be a challenge everywhere.

Spain becomes Europe’s top interceptor of cocaine
Seizures have increased by 5,000% since 1987, which is when the drug was first introduced into the country
Source
For three decades, Spain has been controlling the importation of cocaine, which has multiplied at an unstoppable rate since Europe’s first drug transportation and distribution cartels emerged in Galicia in northwestern Spain. Police files and statistics reveal telling details on the history of the drug, which officially appeared in the country in 1987, when the Interior Ministry began documenting the number of seizures. Since then, and up until 2018, seizures have increased by 5,000%, a figure which represents the largest volume of seized drugs from surrounding European countries.

In 1987, Spanish police destroyed just one ton of cocaine – in 2017, that figure had jumped to 50

The fight against drugs has taken a tremendous toll on the country, both economically and in terms of public health. For the past 10 years, Spain (alongside the United Kingdom), has ranked first in the European Union for cocaine consumption. In 1990, it ranked last. Authorities have not yet managed to curb the upward trend in the past decade, both in terms of trafficking and consumption.
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Re: Fentanyl

Ciro
You are right every situation is unique.  I wonder if Spain becoming the top destination for cocaine coincides with the coca production boom in colombia as colombians travel freely to spain.  
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Re: Fentanyl

Mica
In reply to this post by El Guero
Alcohol is the most socially accepted drug and the percentage used surpasses all drugs combined.  Of course, it is going to have the most impact.  But how many times do you hear someone having 1 sip of beer and then entering prostitution to have a sip?

I know, you people probably think I am square 😂

El Guero wrote
Ivan...So correct on the level of damage that alcohol reaps on society at large.  The irony of it being the only legal drug is insane.  Socially and physiologically it is the most damaging drug IMO.
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Re: Fentanyl

Podrido
In reply to this post by Mica
During decriminalization and prior to full legalization, the majority of the dispensaries in my local area were operated by Hells Angels puppet clubs.

Ultimately, all of these dispensaries were deemed to be illegal even during decriminalization. However, there was an interesting atmosphere wherein though the police would frequently inspect them, they were never really removed en masse until after legalization when the government moved to install their own dispensaries. What's more was that municipalities would offer 'licenses' for dispensaries, while at the same time disclaiming that those licenses did not make the establishment legal in any way, and they would still be at risk of closure by the police.

Something of a grey area similar to the trade of research chemicals, I suppose.

I think it is not just America's war on drugs that has failed. I think, similarly to as you say in challenge, that all wars on drugs globally have failed. It is a waste of time, really. The fact that most countries appear to be witnessing a rise in importation and consumption proves this; ironically, programs like DARE in Canada really only introduced kids to a lot of drugs they never knew existed prior to those sessions. A lot of my friends in high school openly admitted that DARE just gave them an opportunity to search out different ways to experience psychoactive substances.

On that note, in many ways prohibition does contribute to issues because it forces chemists to branch into new analogues that are potentially more dangerous and unstable than previous ones. If you look at the research chemical market you will constantly see they are seeking to add new chemicals and analogues to stay ahead of ever changing drug laws. Unlike things like heroin and cocaine, these new analogues have very little history of human consumption, so no one really knows the effect they might have long term.

Human beings are innately drawn to mechanisms of escape, and for many people drugs are the easiest form of this.

Drug consumption will never be abolished and drug related deaths will never go away either because of this.

There is no perfect answer to any problem however. One must simply weigh the pros and cons of each decision. I think decriminalization overall has worked quite well in the majority of countries it has been utilized in, and though it was during the 1930's I think alcohol prohibition is still worth looking at because the effects before and after are pretty clear.
Just a lurker.
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Re: Fentanyl

Mica
@Podrido you bring up some good points and has me thinking.

What is the biggest escape and largest killer of people?

FOOD!

I am a health freak who sees a nutritionist once a month and weighs and cooks 95% of all my food (even with frequent travel).  However, I don't care that people can get fast food and the new outrageous 1500 calorie lunch menu items make me laugh.  People should be able to eat and drink whatever they desire.  Now, this does put a heavy burden on the health care system (which is why I am not in favor of getting rid of private healthcare, but I digress).

Maybe this analogy has completely changed my view on the legalization of drugs. I am all about marijuana when I travel to places where it is legal.
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Re: Fentanyl

IVAN CHESNOKOV
In reply to this post by Mica
Mica wrote
I like when people quote the time of the civil war when drugs were legal and users were not criminals as if it was some golden era.

Drugs were legal because people had no knowledge of addiction.  The conception that someone would give oral sex on the side of the road with a stranger in order to afford a 2 hour high was inconceivable.  

Also during this "golden era" owning slaves was legal.  I could also have used a straw back then too 🤣😂🤣

@IVAN_CHESNOKOV can you be specific about "mess is a result of prohibition(ism)."?
Would drinking and driving deaths be reduced?
Would gun violence go down?
Would corruption be minimalized?
Would there be fewer ODs?

I am curious about your answer, but it's impossible to quantify.

Also, this UK study is a decade old and compares Heroin to steroids.  
It's very outdated and the factors like "impact on community" are related to the UK and do not factor more leant and legalization of marijuana laws in the US, Fentanyl and updated medical research.
Prohibition laws created the black market.
Would drinking and driving deaths be reduced? That's an alcohol problem mostly.
Would gun violence go down? Yes. I don't remember Jose Cuervo and Don Julio fighting each other with sicarios. Maybe because tequila production is legal, and they just use lawyers and legal channels if they have a dispute ?
Would corruption be minimized? Yes, since the WoD is a huge money laundering machine. Make drugs legal, their prices go down and HSBC and many other hardworking and honest to god bankers(not including federal agencies and politicians) won't see a profit from it.
Would there be less ODs? Yes, most definitely. Specially with synthetic drugs/research chemicals beign quasi-legal  that make "illegal" drugs look harmless if you compare them.  Best examples are K-2 and synthetic cannabinoids compared to regular weed or carfent, U-447700, fentanalogs compared to regular heroin.

Check this video https://youtu.be/wFpxb0M8KjU

I used the US Civil War as an example. Plus drugs were pretty much legal until the puritanical movement that started in 1900s and gained power in 1920s. If alcohol remained illegal there'll be more criminal entepracies, alcohol poisoning, alcohol junkies, etc  
"The conception that someone would give oral sex on the side of the road with a stranger in order to afford a 2 hour high was inconceivable. "
Maybe because they weren't socially marginalized and forced to take desperate measures?
.
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Re: Fentanyl

.
Not sure if legalization would help.  Price of weed in CA and CO seems about the same when you consider the addition of local and state taxes and insurmountable bureaucratic fees associated with its purchase.  Cheaper black market rates still support a thriving underground.  Surely the same would occur with the legalization of other drugs.
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Re: Fentanyl

canadiana
Administrator
In reply to this post by canadiana
Think if they didn't have the war on drugs.So many think it's a waste of time but is it?They have to have some control.Yes you will never eliminate contraband but that's like saying having a border is a waste of time.
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Re: Fentanyl

canadiana
Administrator
In reply to this post by Ciro
Hey Ciro I got thinking a  lot this afternoon about the cost to society of not having legalization that you pointed out (can't find the post??).It was your reply to me about the $27,000 taxpayer's pricetag for legal heroin in the Crosstown clinic in Vancouver.You do have some really valid points on the other side of the coin like incarceration is a really huge cost and victimizing the neighbourhoods to get $ for drugs.
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Re: Fentanyl

Ciro
I erased it after rereading it.  Didnt come out the way I wanted.  
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Re: Fentanyl

Mica
In reply to this post by IVAN CHESNOKOV
@Ivan_Chesnokov we don't see eye to eye, but I respect your argument.

I watched the video and not sure what to think.  It claims "A Vancouver clinic offers heroin to addicts, arguing that it's the best way to help them."  

This girl is walking around like she was bitten on The Walking Dead.  I am not sure what the best thing for her is. Contributing to addict seems like a slow and painful death!

The other contradicting response is that making drugs illegal creates the black market.  Cartels make millions in counterfeiting everything from alcohol to Vanilla extract. In addition, even the CA government has admitted this with underground marijuana shops.

The black market is not just isolated to drugs, even the movie industry is impacted by it.  Look at the number of counterfeit cigarettes, shoes, clothing sunglasses that come in from China and North Korea.  

Then you look at human trafficking.  A motivated and organized group of criminals will do whatever it takes to make money.  This does not matter if the item is legal or illegal.  
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Re: Fentanyl

canadiana
Administrator
You raise some great points that I agree with Mica that the example of giving a stranger oral sex only so they can get high or maybe robbing a 7-11 which they would never have thought of before becoming an addict.I have seen the negative transformation of a perfectly honest person with values and integrity turn a 180 and turn into a scammer and thief because of drugs.They just turn into a totally different person and totally lose who they used to be.I notice a lot of them are always pretending to straight people to be someone they are not which to me means they've lost themselves along the way (or are trying to scam me).As a landlord I have seen more than my share.They need help in a big way or on the PROPER medications to deal with their emotional problems as there seems to be so much drama with them but probably most of this is self inflicted in my opinion.They are just so self defeating no matter what you say there's always an excuse and it never changes.My 2 cents worth.
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Re: Fentanyl

IVAN CHESNOKOV
In reply to this post by Mica
Mica wrote
@Ivan_Chesnokov we don't see eye to eye, but I respect your argument.

I watched the video and not sure what to think.  It claims "A Vancouver clinic offers heroin to addicts, arguing that it's the best way to help them."  

This girl is walking around like she was bitten on The Walking Dead.  I am not sure what the best thing for her is. Contributing to addict seems like a slow and painful death!

The other contradicting response is that making drugs illegal creates the black market.  Cartels make millions in counterfeiting everything from alcohol to Vanilla extract. In addition, even the CA government has admitted this with underground marijuana shops.

The black market is not just isolated to drugs, even the movie industry is impacted by it.  Look at the number of counterfeit cigarettes, shoes, clothing sunglasses that come in from China and North Korea.  

Then you look at human trafficking.  A motivated and organized group of criminals will do whatever it takes to make money.  This does not matter if the item is legal or illegal.
What girl walking around like a zombie? Do you mean the daughter of the heroin addicted mother? She has some rare condition plus cerebral/spinal tumors  , nothing to do with addiction or the video itself.  Did you even watch the video?
" I am not sure what the best thing for her is. Contributing to addict seems like a slow and painful death!"
Ehm, no. She even says at the end she leads a normal life and can hold or get  a job for the first time thanks to the treatment she's receiving. I bet you thought the addict was the daughter and not the mother lol.
Let's make insulin illegal. Since its just prolonging the suffering of sugar junkies.

"The other contradicting response is that making drugs illegal creates the black market.  Cartels make millions in counterfeiting everything from alcohol to Vanilla extract. In addition, even the CA government has admitted this with underground marijuana shops."

Take away the drugs from them, and they will crumble like a house of cards. Vanilla extracts and counterfeit alcohol are just extra bonus and kickbacks.
Human trafficking was first associated with drug traffickers after Calderon initiated his holy crusade war on his own soil (i guess he didn't read the Art of War).

My point is to take the addict away from the black market/criminals. Just look at the US prison system, turning pothheads into PhD criminals from the Aryan Brotherhood or Mexican Mafia schools.

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Re: Fentanyl

Slappy
In reply to this post by Ciro
I work in a homeless shelter in Seattle Wa.  They are putting Fentanyl in everything now.  Especially meth.  We see weird OD's from it.  Like an opiate OD, but they are awake almost in a catatonic state.  It's so cheap now that it's basically free.  A street opiate addiction in Seattle costs less now than being a street alcoholic.
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Re: Fentanyl

Ciro
As soon as Fentanyl hit scene thats when I took a hard look at decrimializing.  Theres a open air drug market close to me and the amount of crime there is unreal.  One has to wonder what would happen if addicts where treated as some one who had a illness and we prescribed clean drugs and a safe place to do them.  1000s deathes every year in my area its insane I am not a addicted and I have witness real od deathes.  One has to wonder.... but I can completely respect if that idea scares people.
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Re: Fentanyl

canadiana
Administrator
In reply to this post by Slappy
Strange mixing an upper with a downer.Usually people prefer 1 over the other.Yeah I get fent is cheap but why not cut it with Manitol (baby laxative) or something less harmful that’s just as cheap that doesn’t interfere with the stimulant  highor is this mixture something they used to call a speedball the mix of coke and heroin that I believe actor John Belusi died of?
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Re: Fentanyl

Mosco
In reply to this post by Slappy
Slappy wrote
I work in a homeless shelter in Seattle Wa.  They are putting Fentanyl in everything now.  Especially meth.  We see weird OD's from it.  Like an opiate OD, but they are awake almost in a catatonic state.  It's so cheap now that it's basically free.  A street opiate addiction in Seattle costs less now than being a street alcoholic.
Wow! Do you have info on the reasons fentanyl and meth are being found together?
Q1. Do the OD victims tell why they do this?.
Q2. Do you know if this is going on elsewhere in the USA?

Please post "anything" more what you learn .
Mosco
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Re: Fentanyl

Parro
From Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedball_(drug);

Cocaine acts as a stimulant, whereas heroin/morphine acts as a depressant. Co-administration is meant to provide an intense rush of euphoria with a high that is supposed to combine the effects of both drugs, while hoping to reduce the negative effects, such as anxiety, hypertension, palpitations and other common side effects of stimulants and sedation/drowsiness from the depressant. While this is somewhat effective, as one drug (the CNS stimulant) triggers the sympathetic nervous system and the other (the CNS depressant) triggers the parasympathetic nervous system, the two systems that regulate the fight-or-flight and rest-and-digest responses, respectively, and simultaneous activity of the two pathways is what normally keeps one's body in natural homeostasis, there is an imperfect overlap in the effects of stimulants and depressants. Additionally, by suppressing the typical negative side-effects of the two drugs, the user may falsely believe they have a higher tolerance, or that they are less intoxicated than they actually are. This can cause users to misjudge the intake of one or both of the drugs, sometimes fatally.

Because the stimulant effects of cocaine wear off far more quickly than the depressant effects of heroin or morphine, fatal respiratory depression often occurs when the full effects of a heroin or morphine overdosage are felt in isolation. Due to the countering effect of the cocaine, a fatally high opioid dose can be unwittingly administered without immediate incapacitation, thus providing a false sense of tolerance until it is too late. This form of delayed opioid overdose is believed to be the most common mechanism of death in speedball overdoses.

Deaths, related to speedball, include:  John Belushi, Chris Farley, Philip Seymour Hoffman, River Phoenix, Joey Stefano, DJ Rashad, etc.

Notable users:  Jack Bruce (Cream), Kurt Cobain, David Crosby, Jerry Garcia, Miles Davis, Ryan Adams, Slash, etc.
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