Confidential Emails: Holder Lied & top Officials knew of F&F informant helped

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Confidential Emails: Holder Lied & top Officials knew of F&F informant helped

Chivis
Administrator
This post was updated on .
Emails show top Justice Department officials knew of ATF gun program  the story of the Informant follows....Calls mount for Holder to quit;
Pressure is intensifying rapidly for the resignation of Attorney General Eric Holder over the fatally flawed Operation Fast and Furious gunrunning scandal —  demanding that Holder quit immediately and Arizona sheriffs saying he should be fired if he won’t resign.
 reports indicate that some government actions in the Fast and Furious scheme of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) could have been felonious.paz  buela..
and..  http://nation.foxnews.com/eric-holder/2011/10/09/calls-mount-holder-quit
additional links at bottom

Memos from 2010 show some in senior positions were aware of tactics used in a surveillance operation in which firearms were allowed into Mexico in a failed effort to catch drug cartel leaders.

Reporting from Washington— Senior Justice Department officials were aware that ATF agents allowed firearms to be "walked" into Mexico, according to a series of emails last year in which they discussed two undercover operations on the Southwest border, including the failed Fast and Furious program.

In the emails that the department turned over to congressional investigators, Justice Department officials last October discussed both the Fast and Furious gun-trafficking surveillance operation in Phoenix and a separate investigation from 2006 and 2007 called Operation Wide Receiver. In Wide Receiver, which took place in Tucson, firearms also were acquired by illegal straw purchasers and lost in Mexico, the emails say.

The term "gun walking" is central to the failure of Fast and Furious. Agents with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives purposely allowed licensed firearms dealers to sell weapons to illegal straw buyers, hoping to track the guns to Mexican drug cartel leaders and arrest them. But they lost track of more than 2,000 weapons, and the Mexican government says some of them have turned up at about 170 crime scenes there. Two were recovered at the scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent's slaying in Arizona in December.

Justice Department officials have said repeatedly that they knew nothing of Fast and Furious tactics until ATF whistle-blowers went public this year with allegations that guns were being illegally purchased with the ATF's knowledge.

Justice Department officials, who asked not to be identified because of the ongoing investigations into Fast and Furious, said that although senior department officials knew that guns were "walked" in the Wide Receiver investigation, they were unaware that ATF agents were using similar tactics in Fast and Furious.

Jason Weinstein, deputy attorney general in the criminal division, brought up both cases in an October 2010 email, apparently concerned that they were going to overlap.

"Do you think we should try to have Lanny participate in press when Fast and Furious and [the] Tucson case are unsealed?" he asked about his boss, Lanny A. Breuer, head of the criminal division. "It's a tricky case given the number of guns that have walked but it is a significant set of prosecutions."

James Trusty, acting chief of the department's organized crime and gang section, responded, "I think so but the timing is tricky too."

He said the Tucson case would be ready for indictments before Fast and Furious, and that "it's not clear how much we're involved in the main F and F case."

Either way, he added that "it's not going to be any big surprise that a bunch of US guns are being used in MX, so I'm not sure how much grief we get for 'guns walking.' It may be more like, 'Finally they're going after people who sent guns down there' "

Investigators working for Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Vista), chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, and Sen. Charles E. Grassley of Iowa, the top Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, view the emails as strong evidence that Justice Department officials knew about "gun walking" tactics in Fast and Furious.

Fast and Furious ran from fall 2009 to January, culminating in charges against 20 people — none of them cartel leaders. It was unclear whether any indictments were issued in the Wide Receiver operation.

July 2010 memos, part of weekly reports, discussed an illegal straw purchaser in Fast and Furious who bought 1,500 weapons "that were then supplied to Mexican drug-trafficking cartels."

October and November memos said that "Phoenix-based 'Operation Fast and Furious' is ready for takedown" — several months before the investigation was officially closed.

Copies of all of the memos were heavily redacted.

Justice Department officials said Atty. Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr. routinely received reports about myriad ongoing investigations around the country, and that the reports did not disclose that ATF agents were purposely "walking" the weapons. They said Issa received a similar Fast and Furious update last year.

But congressional investigators said the memos suggested Holder had hedged what he knew.

According to the emails, Holder was told generally about Fast and Furious in the memos in July, October and November 2010, well before he told congressional committees he had first learned of the program.

On March 10, Holder testified before a Senate subcommittee that he had just learned about the Fast and Furious gun-walking allegations and had asked for the inspector general's investigation. "We cannot have a situation where guns are allowed to walk," he said.

On May 3, he was asked by Issa when he first learned about Fast and Furious. "I'm not sure of the exact date," Holder testified. "But I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks."

Justice Department officials said Holder was referring to the date when he first learned about the operational details of Fast and Furious, not the program itself.

and:  INFORMANT HELP SMUGGLE GUNS TO MEXICO

Reporting from Washington— An FBI/DEA confidential informant helped smuggle firearms from the ATF's Fast and Furious gun-trafficking surveillance operation to drug cartels in Mexico, according to evidence compiled by congressional investigators.

The investigators said the informant obtained the weapons from Manuel Celis-Acosta, considered by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to be the "biggest fish" of 20 individuals indicted in Fast and Furious. At the same time the informant was receiving large amounts of "official law enforcement funds as payment" for his services, they said.

Congressional investigators believe the informant was working with U.S. law enforcement over a two-year period, beginning in early 2009, and often contacted DEA agents such as Jim Roberts, the resident agent-in-charge in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, to "pass on information to these agents about Mexican drug cartels."

The revelations were contained in a letter Tuesday from Rep. Darrel Issa (R-Vista), chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, and Sen. Charles E. Grassley of Iowa, the top Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, to Atty. Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr. They contend that had the FBI and Drug Enforcement Administration told the ATF about the informant, Fast and Furious would have been shut down much earlier.

Holder has said he learned of Fast and Furious after it was shut down, and did not know that ATF agents allowed more than 2,000 weapons to be illegally purchased in the Phoenix area. Many turned up at violent crime scenes in Mexico; two were recovered in December after a U.S. Border Patrol agent was killed in Arizona.

The letter signals that the congressional investigation is looking beyond the ATF operation and into the possibility of a major breakdown in law enforcement cooperation on the border.

Fast and Furious ran for 15 months, from fall 2009 to last January, and culminated in indictments in Phoenix. Among them was Celis-Acosta. Documents show that when Fast and Furious was first proposed, the ATF targeted Celis-Acosta because they said he was "believed to be supplying firearms" to a drug cartel.

Congressional investigators have learned that the DEA was aware of Celis-Acosta's alleged drug trafficking activity as early as late 2009, just when Fast and Furious was getting underway, and that he was "providing hundreds of firearms to members of Mexican drug cartels." In fact, they knew Celis-Acosta allegedly was moving guns to Ciudad Juarez, south of El Paso, "but that he was uneasy about taking the guns across the border himself."

The FBI and DEA also knew that the informant, identified as "CI#1," was ordering weapons from Celis-Acosta and smuggling them into Mexico. That informant, "apparently the financier for Celia-Acosta's firearms trafficking ring, later began cooperating with the FBI and may have received additional government payments as a confidential informant."

In one payment, the investigators learned, the U.S. government gave the informant $3,500 for his services.

LINKS:
Holder responds:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20117477-10391695.html
Calls for resignation etc;
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/08/30/sources-atf-director-to-be-reassigned-amid-fast-and-furious-uproar/
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/opinion/mailbag/article_2f076d8c-6229-51ac-9d91-f47e42042c45.html

 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: Emails show top J.D officials knew of ATF gun program-& informant helped

Chivis
Administrator
This is such a fluid slope for Holder...Emails prove knowledge a year before he claims to have known.  Its pretty much close to a smoking gun..

If Nobama was smart he would dump him now...

BUT...I would not be surprised if the Prez is exposed next..

 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: Emails show top J.D officials knew of ATF gun program-& informant helped

JesusTheMoose
Go get 'em Daryl Issa.  He's a pretty tenacious representative and he's also from the San Diego delegation which is usually tough on crime and have an intimate understanding of border issues. AG Gonzalez went down for less so I hope Holder will go down hard. And besides, he's a racist anti-American douche bag.
The only object of liberty is life. -- G. K. Chesterton

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -- Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Emails show top J.D officials knew of ATF gun program-& informant helped

JesusTheMoose
In reply to this post by Chivis
Buela, Obama likes snowing folks so much we ought to call him, Snowbama.
The only object of liberty is life. -- G. K. Chesterton

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -- Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Emails show top J.D officials knew of ATF gun program-& informant helped

Chivis
Administrator
Snowbama!  jajajaja  perfect!  But he sure did a hell of a job with the snow last election... in fact he still thinks he's campaigning.
 
I had a thought, well actually my husband had a similar thought before me,  a few months ago, but mine is;  If things get hopeless enough for Snowbama,  there is a way he could come out looking selfless (which he is anything but).  He could pull a LBJ with a "My fellow Americans...." speech, one to beat all his speeches ( and lets face it he is a master at it) , and tell us he  "not seek, nor accept the nomination for a second term".  Executed perfectly he could save face with a great number of Americans who still like him as a president or personally. 
 
That would open the door for Hilary to run for President.  and THAT would be a nightmare for us republicans as it would become a much tougher challenge.
 
I don't know....I know his ego would probably never allow it, but it would be an incredibly smart move and a profitable one as he is paid big bucks
for speaking and books.   worth much more than if he runs and loses.
 
Crazy? 
 
 

From: JesusTheMoose [via Borderland Beat] <[hidden email]>
To: Buela Chivis <[hidden email]>
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Subject: Re: Emails show top J.D officials knew of ATF gun program-& informant helped

Buela, Obama likes snowing folks so much we ought to call him, Snowbama.
Narco eating rabbit


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The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: Emails show top J.D officials knew of ATF gun program-& informant helped

JesusTheMoose
In reply to this post by Chivis
Buela, Obama likes snowing folks so much we ought to call him, Snowbama.
The only object of liberty is life. -- G. K. Chesterton

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -- Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Emails show top J.D officials knew of ATF gun program-& informant helped

JesusTheMoose
Sorry about the duplicated post. I got smartphone hiccups.
The only object of liberty is life. -- G. K. Chesterton

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -- Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Emails show top J.D officials knew of ATF gun program-& informant helped

Malo Compañía
In reply to this post by Chivis
The thing is, we already know that the FBI, DEA and other agencies were also involved in the operation and as separate agencies under the federal government the only way they could have possibly worked together on such a project that is involves another nation  is if Holder had gotten executive orders from Obama himself and I would be willing to bet that Obama would support Holder until his grave rather than expose himself to the public for his illegal actions that violate the right of a sovereign country such as Mexico.

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Re: Emails show top J.D officials knew of ATF gun program-& informant helped

Chivis
Administrator
yep.... a full investigation of facts no matter where it falls is needed.
They have brought in GW  (naturally) into the mix with his own gun walker project.
that should get the same investigation, perhaps the same time.

As I understoof GWs is the program did not cross weapons into Mx but was solely to catch those buying the guns for Mexicans but on the US side, and it was the US side where they were arrested.  I am inclined to believe that as we did not have tons of weapons traced back to the project from Mx as we do now.
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
EEE
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Re: Emails show top J.D officials knew of ATF gun program-& informant helped

EEE
In reply to this post by Chivis
@Buela
 
 There is absolutely NO WAY Snobama (I really like that name btw) will not seek re-election. he's already been campaigning instead of trying to fix the country's problems, and his ego would NEVER allow him to admit defeat or that he isnt the savior so many liberals believed him to be. but they created this ego maniac, for crissakes, he got a noble peace prize before he even actually did anything!? I STILL cant fathom how the hell that happened?!?!?! anyways, i hope he is done in 2012 but I just dont know. And I hold no horse in the race here, I am not even an american and I dont live in the U.S. so its just my observations.

on another note, I just wanted to say thnk you to you for always providing such excellent information and, from what I have been reading, all the great work you do in MX!!!!
"I'm a man who believed that i died 20 years ago and i live like a man who is dead already. I have no fear whatsoever of anybody or anything."
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Re: Emails show top J.D officials knew of ATF gun program-& informant helped

ArmChairIntellect
Everyone should compare Obama's cabinet with Bush's, I bet most would be surprised not by the differences but rather by what they have in common.  Think Banks.....  Our government is wallstreet and wallstreet is our government.  Why is anyone surprised?  BTW Holder is done, a lamb must be sacrificed.
jp
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Re: Emails show top J.D officials knew of ATF gun program-& informant helped

jp
In reply to this post by Chivis
Here is Issa's letter written to Holder today. Not looking good for Holder.



    Dear Attorney General Holder:

    From the beginning of the congressional investigation into Operation Fast and Furious, the Department of Justice has offered a roving set of ever-changing explanations to justify its involvement in this reckless and deadly program. These defenses have been aimed at undermining the investigation. From the start, the Department insisted that no wrongdoing had occurred and asked Senator Grassley and me to defer our oversight responsibilities over its concerns about our purported interference with its ongoing criminal investigations. Additionally, the Department steadfastly insisted that gunwalking did not occur.

    Once documentary and testimonial evidence strongly contradicted these claims, the Department attempted to limit the fallout from Fast and Furious to the Phoenix Field Division of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF). When that effort also proved unsuccessful, the Department next argued that Fast and Furious resided only within ATF itself, before eventually also assigning blame to the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Arizona. All of these efforts were designed to circle the wagons around DOJ and its political appointees.

    To that end, just last month, you claimed that Fast and Furious did not reach the upper levels of the Justice Department. Documents discovered through the course of the investigation, however, have proved each and every one of these claims advanced by the Department to be untrue. It appears your latest defense has reached a new low. Incredibly, in your letter from Friday you now claim that you were unaware of Fast and Furious because your staff failed to inform you of information contained in memos that were specifically addressed to you. At best, this indicates negligence and incompetence in your duties as Attorney General. At worst, it places your credibility into serious doubt.

    Following the Committee’s issuance of a subpoena over six months ago, I strongly believed that the Department would fully cooperate with Congress and support this investigation with all the means at its disposal. The American people deserve no less. Unfortunately, the Department’s cooperation to date has been minimal. Hundreds of pages of documents that have been produced to my Committee are duplicative, and hundreds more contain substantial redactions, rendering them virtually worthless. The Department has actively engaged in retaliation against multiple whistleblowers, and has, on numerous occasions, attempted to disseminate false and misleading information to the press in an attempt to discredit this investigation.

    Your letter dated October 7 is deeply disappointing. Instead of pledging all necessary resources to assist the congressional investigation in discovering the truth behind the fundamentally flawed Operation Fast and Furious, your letter instead did little but obfuscate, shift blame, berate, and attempt to change the topic away from the Department’s responsibility in the creation, implementation, and authorization of this reckless program. You claim that, after months of silence, you “must now address these issues” over Fast and Furious because of the harmful discourse of the past few days. Yet, the only major development of these past few days has been the release of multiple documents showing that you and your senior staff had been briefed, on numerous occasions, about Fast and Furious.

    The Mexican Cartels

    A month after you became Attorney General, you spoke of the danger of the Mexican drug cartels, and the Sinaloa cartel in particular. The cartels, you said, “are lucrative, they are violent, and they are operated with stunning planning and precision.” You promised that under your leadership “these cartels will be destroyed.” You vowed that the Department of Justice would “continue to work with [its] counterparts in Mexico, through information sharing, training and mutual cooperation to jointly fight these cartels, both in Mexico and the United States.”

    Under your leadership, however, Operation Fast and Furious has proven these promises hollow. According to one agent, Operation Fast and Furious “armed the cartel. It is disgusting.” Fast and Furious simply served as a convenient means for dangerous cartels to acquire upwards of 2,000 assault-style weapons. On top of that, the Government of Mexico was not informed about Fast and Furious. In fact, DOJ and ATF officials actively engaged in hiding information about Fast and Furious from not only Mexican officials, but also U.S. law enforcement officials operating in Mexico for fear that they would inform their Mexican counterparts. This strategy is inapposite and contradicts the promises you made to the American people.

    Your September 7, 2011 Statement

    On September 7, 2011, you said that “[t]he notion that [Fast and Furious] reaches into the upper levels of the Justice Department is something that at this point I don't think is supported by the facts and I think once we examine it and once the facts are revealed we'll see that's not the case.” Unfortunately, the facts directly contradict this statement.

    Lanny Breuer, the Assistant Attorney General for the Criminal Division, clearly a member of the Department’s senior leadership, knew about Fast and Furious as early as March 2010. In fact, I have learned that the amount of detail shared with Breuer’s top deputies about Fast and Furious is simply astounding.

    For example, Manuel Celis-Acosta was the “biggest fish” of the straw purchasing ring in Phoenix. From the time the investigation started in September 2009 until March 15, 2010, Manuel Celis-Acosta acquired at least 852 firearms valued at around $500,000 through straw purchasers. Yet in 2009, Celis-Acosta reported an Arizona taxable income of only $15,475. Between September 2009 and late January 2010, 139 of these firearms were recovered, 81 in Mexico alone. Some of these firearms were recovered less than 24 hours after they were bought.

    This information, and hundreds of pages worth of additional information, was included in highly detailed wiretap applications sent for authorization to Breuer’s top deputies. It is my understanding, the Department applied to the United States District Court for the District of Arizona for numerous wire taps from March 2010 to July 2010. These wire tap applications were reviewed and approved by several Deputy Assistant Attorney Generals, including Kenneth A. Blanco, John C. Keeney, and Jason M. Weinstein. Breuer’s top deputies approved these wiretap applications to be used against individuals associated with the known drug cartels. As I understand it, the wire tap applications contain rich detail of the reckless operational tactics being employed by your agents in Phoenix. Although Breuer and his top deputies were informed of the operational details and tactics of Fast and Furious, they did nothing to stop the program. In fact, on a trip to Mexico Breuer trumpeted Fast and Furious as a promising investigation.

    Gary Grindler, the then-Deputy Attorney General and currently your Chief of Staff, received an extremely detailed briefing on Operation Fast and Furious on March 12, 2010. In this briefing, Grindler learned such minutiae as the number of times that Uriel Patino, a straw purchaser on food stamps who ultimately acquired 720 firearms, went in to a cooperating gun store and the amount of guns that he had bought. When former Acting ATF Director Ken Melson, a career federal prosecutor, learned similar information, he became sick to his stomach:

    At the time of his briefing in March of last year, Grindler knew that Patino had purchased 313 weapons and paid for all of them in cash. Unlike Melson, Grindler clearly saw nothing wrong with this. If Grindler had had the sense to shut this investigation down right then, he could have prevented the purchase of an additional 407 weapons by Patino alone. Instead, Grindler did nothing to stop the program.

    Following this briefing, it is clear that Grindler did one of two things. Either, he alerted you to the name and operational details of Fast and Furious, in which case your May 3, 2011 testimony in front of Congress was false; or, he failed to inform you of the name and the operational details of Fast and Furious, in which case Grindler engaged in gross dereliction of his duties as Acting Deputy Attorney General. It is fair to infer from the fact that Grindler remains as your Chief of Staff that he did not engage in gross dereliction of his duties and told you about the program as far back as March of 2010.

    In the summer of 2010, at the latest, you were undoubtedly informed about Fast and Furious. On at least five occasions you were told of the connection between Fast and Furious and a specific Mexican cartel – the very cartel that you had vowed to destroy. You were informed that Manuel Celis-Acosta and his straw purchasers were responsible for the purchase of 1,500 firearms that were then supplied to Mexican drug trafficking cartels. Yet, you did nothing to stop this program.

    You failed to own up to your responsibility to safeguard the American public by hiding behind “[a]ttorneys in [your] office and the Office of the Deputy Attorney General,” who you now claim did not bring this information to your attention. Holder Letter, supra note 1. As a result of your failure to act on these memos sent to you, nearly 500 additional firearms were purchased under Fast and Furious.

    The facts simply do not support any claim that Fast and Furious did not reach the highest levels of the Justice Department. Actually, Fast and Furious did reach the ultimate authority in the Department – you.

    Your May 3, 2011 Statement

    On May 3, 2011, I asked you directly when you first knew about the operation known as Fast and Furious. You responded directly, and to the point, that you weren’t “sure of the exact date, but [you] probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks.” This statement, made before Congress, has proven to be patently untrue. Documents released by the Department just last week showed that you received at least seven memos about Fast and Furious starting as early as July 2010.

    In your letter Friday, you blamed your staff for failing to inform you about Operation Fast and Furious when they reviewed the memos sent to you last summer. Your staff, therefore, was certainly aware of Fast and Furious over a year ago. Lanny Breuer was aware of Fast and Furious as early as March 2010, and Gary Grindler was also aware of Fast and Furious as early as March 2010. Given this frequency of high level involvement with Fast and Furious as much as a year prior to your May 3, 2011 testimony, it simply is not believable that you were not briefed on Fast and Furious until a few weeks before your testimony. At the very least, you should have known about Fast and Furious well before then. The current paper trail, which will only grow more robust as additional documents are discovered, creates the strong perception that your statement in front of Congress was less than truthful.

    The February 4, 2011 Letter

    Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of this intransigence is that the Department of Justice has been lying to Congress ever since the inquiry into Fast and Furious began. On February 4, 2011, Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich wrote that “ATF makes every effort to interdict weapons that have been purchased illegally and prevent their transport into Mexico.” This letter, vetted by both the senior ranks of ATF as well as the Office of the Deputy Attorney General, is a flat-out lie.

    As we understand it, in March 2010, top deputies to Lanny Breuer were informed that law enforcement officers intercepted calls that demonstrated that Manuel Celis-Acosta was conspiring to purchase and transport firearms for the purpose of trafficking the firearms from the United States into Mexico. Not only was ATF aware of this information, but so was the Drug Enforcement Administration and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. This information was shared with the Criminal Division. All of these organizations are components of the Department of Justice, and they were all aware of the illegal purchase of firearms and their eventual transportation into Mexico.

    These firearms were not interdicted. They were not stopped. Your agents allowed these firearms purchases to continue, sometimes even monitoring them in person, and within days some of these weapons were being recovered in Mexico. Despite widespread knowledge within its senior ranks that this practice was occurring, when asked on numerous occasions about the veracity of this letter, the Department has shockingly continued to stand by its false statement of February 4, 2011.

    Mr. Attorney General, you have made numerous statements about Fast and Furious that have eventually been proven to be untrue. Your lack of trustworthiness while speaking about Fast and Furious has called into question your overall credibility as Attorney General. The time for deflecting blame and obstructing our investigation is over. The time has come for you to come clean to the American public about what you knew about Fast and Furious, when you knew it, and who is going to be held accountable for failing to shut down a program that has already had deadly consequences, and will likely cause more casualties for years to come.

    Operation Fast and Furious was the Department’s most significant gun trafficking case. It related to two of your major initiatives – destroying the Mexican cartels and reducing gun violence on both sides of the border. On your watch, it went spectacularly wrong. Whether you realize yet or not, you own Fast and Furious. It is your responsibility.

    Sincerely,
    Darrell Issa
    Chairman
Tex
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Re: Confidential Emails: Holder Lied & top Officials knew of F&F informant helped

Tex
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Re: Emails show top J.D officials knew of ATF gun program-& informant helped

Chivis
Administrator
In reply to this post by EEE
Hola!

I am thinking the same, but his giantic ego sure gets in the way of sound decision making.
It will be interesting.  I hope he does run.  I sure have more confidence in Clinton,
but having her or Snobama in the white house for another term would finish off any hope
of economic recovery.


and hey, thank so much for your kind words!
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: Confidential Emails: Holder Lied & top Officials knew of F&F informant helped

Chivis
Administrator
In reply to this post by Tex
Texcoco...I realize it is very frustrating when a crime goes without justice.  However, in our judicial system  there will always be an amount of unpunished crimes and those who probably are guilty but because of our high standard of prosecution ("beyond a reasonable doubt") that will happen, but look at the alternative; without the standard the percentage of wrongly convicted would be much higher.  Be assured our system is the greatest in the world, far from perfect justice but closer than any place else.  

If you have not served on a jury, next time you are called - serve!  We need a good cross section of citizens on juries which will keep it the way our forefathers intended.  Once you step into that jury box or diliberation room, most citizens really give their best effort and work diligently to give the defendant a fair trial and judge only on the evidence.  Sometimes juries get it wrong ( can anyone say Casey Anthony? or OJ?)  but most often they do bring it home.

I am not in favor of sequestered juries BTW.  a form of bonding occurs among the jurors and that often  compromises decisions.  IMO
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: Emails show top J.D officials knew of ATF gun program-& informant helped

Chivis
Administrator
In reply to this post by jp
Holy crap...I was out to meetings all morning and just saw this.

He should resign NOW.  Most "experts" say Obama will not throw him under the bus, I am calling that
BS...He is many things but stupid and unselfish are not two of them....thanks for this letter!
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
Tex
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Re: Confidential Emails: Holder Lied & top Officials knew of F&F informant helped

Tex
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Re: Emails show top J.D officials knew of ATF gun program-& informant helped

Malo Compañía
In reply to this post by Chivis
This reminds me of Watergate in some ways, it was not that Nixon did the break in, it's that he tried to cover it up after he found out about it that did him in, and this is the same thing, holder knew and is trying to cover it up.

At least when Nixon covered up Watergate, no one died.
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Re: Emails show top J.D officials knew of ATF gun program-& informant helped

Chivis
Administrator
I think about the comparisons all the time....
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: Emails show top J.D officials knew of ATF gun program-& informant helped

Havana
I think Holder will be stepping out soon.
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