CJNG took down the Mexican Army helicopter in Jalisco with a Rocket Propelled Grenade [RPG]

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Re: CJNG took down the Mexican Army helicopter in Jalisco with a Rocket Propelled Grenade [RPG]

La Flama Blanca
@Tijuano:

I could be wrong, but in the bottom right portion of the first photo you posted it looks like there is a mounting for a machine gun (mounted in the middle of the truck bed).  Similar to what terrorists in the middle east do with pickup trucks.  I know they mount machine guns in truck beds in Mex too, because I've seen multiple Narco pics of trucks with them.  If that is in fact the truck that shot down the heli (in the pics), and if there was a machine gun mounted in the bed then @Siski's theory of the heli being shot down by bullets (not an rpg) is even more probable, regardless of the presence of rpg's in the truck.

The helicopter was probably taking heavy fire from bullets, and one or more rpg's were launched (or not).  One or the other, or both, took down the Cougar.  But if the heli had time to hover after being hit to allow some of the soldiers to repel and escape the inevitable crash, it would seem more plausible that bullets simply made the tail rotor inoperable, which eventually led to a very hard crash landing.  We do not know how long the helicopter stayed in the air after being hit and before crashing.  
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Re: CJNG took down the Mexican Army helicopter in Jalisco with a Rocket Propelled Grenade [RPG]

jlopez
The fired cases appear to be 7.62 Nato/.308 Win., with thrown/ejected links, so I bet they were firing an M-60. Makes more sense than AK-47 ammo, which fires slow 123 gr bullet w/ about 2200 fps muzzle velocity. Both would fire military loads (full metal jackets), but the 172 gr. 7.62 at about 2700 fps would do much more damage and make it easier to hit the helicopter. My memory is faulty, but the velocities and bullet weights are close enough.  
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Re: CJNG took down the Mexican Army helicopter in Jalisco with a Rocket Propelled Grenade [RPG]

La Flama Blanca
I know almost nothing about gun specifics.  But I noticed what looked like some sort of mounting in the middle of that pickup bed.  But ya @Jlopez, good eye/knowledge about those spent shell casings being of a higher/heavier(?)(my lack of gun knowledge, lol) caliber.  Those casings, plus the possible mounting of something in the pickup bed, further backs up the/my idea of there being some sort of high caliber weapon being mounted in the back of that truck.

If anyone disagrees with me, please feel free to shoot my theory down.  It was just something I noticed.
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Re: CJNG took down the Mexican Army helicopter in Jalisco with a Rocket Propelled Grenade [RPG]

Siskiyou_Kid
In reply to this post by jlopez
Good point. A mounted M60/M240 machine gun would probably have a range similar to most RPG's, although helicopters can take quite a few bullets without failing, while hits from 2 RPG's could be catestrophic.

In either case, it was a fairly lucky hit, although the Cougar was probably hovering at low altitude over the location of the gunmen, with the crew firing on them.
Those that say, don't know. Those that know, don't say.
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Re: CJNG took down the Mexican Army helicopter in Jalisco with a Rocket Propelled Grenade [RPG]

Tijuano
In reply to this post by La Flama Blanca
La Flama Blanca wrote
I could be wrong, but in the bottom right portion of the first photo you posted it looks like there is a mounting for a machine gun (mounted in the middle of the truck bed).
Here are some pics from the vehicles seized after the attack, one of them does appear to have some kind of shooting platform in their bed...





@Jlopez: At first I thought those were 50 caliber casings but I must admit I know basically nothing about weapons.
Si vis pacem, para bellum
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Re: CJNG took down the Mexican Army helicopter in Jalisco with a Rocket Propelled Grenade [RPG]

La Flama Blanca
In reply to this post by Siskiyou_Kid
@Siski, I read somewhere, I think it was a comment on mainboard saying that the Cougar hovered long enough at a low enough altitude for some of the soldiers to repel and escape before the crash.  Now weather they were repelling before or after the debilitating hit.. who knows.  I totally agree with you about it being a lucky shot to bring that helicopter down with anything short of a SAM or Stinger.  The Narcos were probably returning fire after being shot at, or they were providing themselves with cover fire while trying to evade the heli and they managed to hit the right spot with a few lucky shots.  The RPG's in the truck prove nothing about the cougar being shot down by them.
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Re: CJNG took down the Mexican Army helicopter in Jalisco with a Rocket Propelled Grenade [RPG]

La Flama Blanca
In reply to this post by Tijuano
There definitely looks like whatever type of weapon was mounted in that truck was protected with a steel shield, protecting the gunner.  Which would allow the gunner enough protection to get a decent amount of shots off, while being fired upo by the soldiers on the helicopter and/or other positions from the ground.  

Does anyone know if they killed or captured the CJNG members of took down the heli?  Because they obviously manged to confiscate their vehicles.

One more thing.  Are we positive that the vehicles in these pictures are the actual ones involved in this incident?    
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Re: CJNG took down the Mexican Army helicopter in Jalisco with a Rocket Propelled Grenade [RPG]

La Flama Blanca
Sorry for all my comments, one after another, after another lol.  But @Tijuanos first pic with the possible mounting, has to be the same truck as his following pics with whatever is mounted under the tarp, because both pics have black tool boxes in the bed behind the cab.

Or maybe its just an old school big screen TV.
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Re: CJNG took down the Mexican Army helicopter in Jalisco with a Rocket Propelled Grenade [RPG]

Siskiyou_Kid
This post was updated on .
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Those that say, don't know. Those that know, don't say.
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Re: CJNG took down the Mexican Army helicopter in Jalisco with a Rocket Propelled Grenade [RPG]

La Flama Blanca
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Re: CJNG took down the Mexican Army helicopter in Jalisco with a Rocket Propelled Grenade [RPG]

Siskiyou_Kid
Sorry, I misread your comment so I'm deleting mine.
Those that say, don't know. Those that know, don't say.
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Re: CJNG took down the Mexican Army helicopter in Jalisco with a Rocket Propelled Grenade [RPG]

jlopez
In reply to this post by Tijuano
Tijuano: .50 Cal. cases are huge; empty cases are about 5 in. long, and the case mouth looks enormous (bullets are 1/2 in. diameter). A loaded case is about an inch longer. According to what I've been reading, the narcos use .50 cal. Barret rifles, which are generally bolt action rifles.

The spent links are a dead giveaway; a bolt action rifle would have no need for ammunition belts. The quantity of spent links shows that the weapon was belt-fed, with disintegrating links, and was fired on full auto. The size of the fired cases looks about right for the 7.62x51 NATO, exactly the same size as the .308 Win., the civilian version of the 7.62, which I have been loading and shooting for decades. When you consider the machine gun mount on the bed of the pickup in the photo, it all adds up to a M-60, which fires belt-fed 7.62 ammunition at about 500 or 600 rounds per minute. I made an error in my previous comment on this topic. Military loads for 7.62 use a 147 grain bullet at about 2700 fps and a heavier 175 gr bullet at about 2550 fps. I forgot that the bullet weights were changed after the 7.62 was adopted. No big deal, the weights and velocities are in the neighborhood.  
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Re: CJNG took down the Mexican Army helicopter in Jalisco with a Rocket Propelled Grenade [RPG]

Siskiyou_Kid
I was thinking that they were talking Barret magazine fed .50 BMG caliber rifles, which is all I've ever seen seized in Mexico, but if they had RPG's, these guys could have easily been using an actual belt-fed Browning machine gun, or some European variant. I think this is unlikely, or we would see photos and the government would make a big deal out of it, like with the RPG's.

Have you seen the baby .308 I have? It's the one in the middle.



Those that say, don't know. Those that know, don't say.
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Re: CJNG took down the Mexican Army helicopter in Jalisco with a Rocket Propelled Grenade [RPG]

jlopez
That's a very interesting weapon. Is it chambered for .308/7.62 or one of the new .308 cal. cartridges? I would not mind shooting off a few magazines with this rifle just to see what it can do.

By the way, Kid, I have been following those interesting discussions you and others (TTank, Califero, Tijuano, Baja, Choco) have been engaged in lately. I usually don't comment because one of you, usually Kid Siskiyou, has already expressed my opinion in ways I can't improve on, and brought up things that give me more to think about.

I'll just mention something that Jose "Pepe" Mujica said recently in a speech after his term ended. He said something like, "When we were young, we thought that changing the methods of production and distribution would make a better world. Today, we realize that the only way to change society is to change the way people think." He actually referred to social morals and ethics, but the I think the way I have paraphrased his concept is valid. This is such painfully obvious logic, but Pepe Mujica is living proof that it is a difficult concept to truly understand. Hell, if it took a man like Mujica most of a lifetime to learn this, what can we expect from Mexican and American politicians?
 
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Re: CJNG took down the Mexican Army helicopter in Jalisco with a Rocket Propelled Grenade [RPG]

Siskiyou_Kid
This is a clone of an HK91 chambered in 7.62 x 51mm with a shortened barrel and hand guard.

The upper rifle is an AR10 also chambered in 7.62 x 51mm.
Those that say, don't know. Those that know, don't say.
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Re: CJNG took down the Mexican Army helicopter in Jalisco with a Rocket Propelled Grenade [RPG]

Tijuano
In reply to this post by jlopez
@JLopez

Thanks for the info, I really don´t know much about weapons but they seemed to big to me compared to the license plate in the background but honestly I havent seen in person either (.50 or 7.62 nato).

You are right, after reading about M60s it sounds quite logical.

I know this isn´t really the first time this firepower has been used by cartels, but I wonder if this will becomer increasingly common with other cartels trying not to fall behind, just like everyone began forming mini armies after Los Zetas were created.
Si vis pacem, para bellum
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Re: CJNG took down the Mexican Army helicopter in Jalisco with a Rocket Propelled Grenade [RPG]

La Flama Blanca
does anyone know how they confiscated the vehicles that supposedly took down the helicopter?  Were they taken from the scene, and if so what happened to all the narcos?  Or did they find those vehicles abandoned and dumped somewhere?

This whole incident with CJNG vs. the gov. is extremely intriguing to me (and I'm sure everyone else here), especially the helicopter event.  I've heard about military helis being shot down by cartels before, but never has there been this much publicity and news about an incident like this, not to mention the pictures and a diagram of what took place.  
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Re: CJNG took down the Mexican Army helicopter in Jalisco with a Rocket Propelled Grenade [RPG]

Maddy
In reply to this post by Siskiyou_Kid
@kid

That's an heckler & koch(HK) or PTR 91..but that .308 is fully. Is it really yours?..you have to go thru hell to acquire a fully auto. The lever has safety, full auto, and burst. Really it's yours?
" Es más chíngon el chapó que el gobierno mexicano"
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Re: CJNG took down the Mexican Army helicopter in Jalisco with a Rocket Propelled Grenade [RPG]

Siskiyou_Kid
No, it's not full auto and it doesn't have a shoulder stock, so it's considered a 'pistol' or I would have to have a short barreled rifle registration with the ATF and pay the $200 tax stamp.

I live in a state where full auto is legal [if the federal tax stamp has been paid and approved through an ATF background check] and my gun dealer is a Class III dealer in full auto, as well as a manufacturer, but only government employees and manufacturers can own a post-1986 machine gun.

Because of this, the legal trigger group for this gun runs about $7,000 [due to scarcity of these items registered before 1986], in addition to going through the process of obtaining the Class III tax stamp.

I have a clipped full auto trigger group from a surplus G3 that slides in with the removal of 3 quick release push pins, and I have a collapsible shoulder stock [also G3 surplus, but modified] which installs with 2 push pins. However I keep these items stored at a different location from my guns, because ATF could argue that the ease of installation means I own a full auto short-barreled rifle. I have no desire to give the feds any opportunity to find me in violation of gun laws.
Those that say, don't know. Those that know, don't say.
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Re: CJNG took down the Mexican Army helicopter in Jalisco with a Rocket Propelled Grenade [RPG]

Maddy
Oh wow kid, that's cool. Yeah its considered a 'pistol'.. nice weapon by the way. By the way, what's the difference from the full auto trigger group that you have apart from the original one?
" Es más chíngon el chapó que el gobierno mexicano"
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