CJNG - (New VIDEOS, 6/1/15) 40+ Killed in Narco/PF Clash on Mich./Jalisco Border

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Re: CJNG - 40+ Killed in Narco/PF Clash on Mich./Jalisco Border

Chivis
Administrator
although I love AP don't you read MB posts?

from the post authored by Lucio, ends with this

"What happened in Tanhuato, in this reporter’s opinion, was a message sent to Mencho, leader of Cartel Jalisco New Generation. A violent, retaliatory planned response, for the downing of an air force helicopter, and the ambush of federal forces by CJNG.    

Let’s be clear, in recent confrontations, CJNG has greatly embarrassed government forces.  CJNG have appeared being better warriors in recent conflicts,

If it is true that there were 300-500 federal forces with top of the line weaponry, helos in the air, that attacked 50-60 guys in Tanhuato, to send a message.  The message that may be construed,  is federal forces appear weak, having to rely on such lopsided advantage and perhaps extrajudicial slaughter to even the score and send a message."  
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: CJNG - 40+ Killed in Narco/PF Clash on Mich./Jalisco Border

Chivis
Administrator
In reply to this post by Siskiyou_Kid
My best guess is that the bodies were taken to the base and incinerated.  Probably Campo Militar No.1-C which has a crematorium and is an easy drive of 2 hrs, near DF
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: CJNG - 40+ Killed in Narco/PF Clash on Mich./Jalisco Border

Moros
In reply to this post by Chivis
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Re: CJNG - 40+ Killed in Narco/PF Clash on Mich./Jalisco Border

Siskiyou_Kid
In reply to this post by Chivis
I can't believe Iguala is not an international incident.

Yes, the press has picked it up and people paid attention for a moment, but really? The army's involvement in the mass incineration of massacre victims? This does not bode well for democracy.

Iguala, San Pedro Limón, and now these incidents in Michoacan/Jalisco, bring into real question whether the army/policia federal are routinely operating as death squads no different from those that plagued CA and SA in the 1970's and 1980's.

 
Those that say, don't know. Those that know, don't say.
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Re: CJNG - 40+ Killed in Narco/PF Clash on Mich./Jalisco Border

Chivis
Administrator
The world has ADD when it come to news.  On to the next tragedy..

In 2011 I wrote a post about the killing of innocents, detailing the many ways a citizen can die in mexico.
as part of the post I wrote about the Black death squads, I think Lucio mentioned them also.  I have the full article of EL Universal's explosive article somewhere and I translated it to English.  But here is what I had about the military death squads on the Killing of Innocents post:



Narco execution is not the only threat to the people of Mexico.  A new report from the U.S. State Department reveals that Mexican police and the military have "engaged in unlawful killings, forced disappearances, and instances of physical abuse and torture".  The report findings are that the Mexican government is killing and torturing their people and covering the horrendous acts by altering records and being deceitful by safeguarding  the truth from the public.




In late 2010, the respected Mexican News Agency El Universal published an article titled “Social Cleansing Not Drugwar”.  The article detailed the determination of a small group of Mexican Senators and their effort to force CISEN (intelligence branch) to release documents and a report that contained evidence of “Comando Negro”,  Black Commando death squads, also called “grupos de limpieza”, Social Cleansing  Squads.  



In September 2010, the Senate formally asked the Center for Investigation and National Security (CISEN) for detailed reports about the existence of these groups, whom it called "death squads" because it is believed they may be responsible for a large number  of  murders officially recognized in this war against the drug cartels, and for thousands of unsolved disappearances.



"These groups operate outside the law with the knowledge and complicity of the Mexican State," said Senator Ricardo Monreal Avila, parliamentary coordinator of the Labour Party  and the leader of the group who sponsored  the request for information from Cisen.  It is thought that thousands of Army deserters, both soldiers and officers, and police officers fired for corruption make up these groups. They are "trained paramilitaries," says the Senator.
 


Under the guise of authority the squads wear police uniforms, carry badges and drive patrol cars.  In the article Universal asserts “ No accounting is given to what actually occurs, but if revealed we would see that there are not 28,000 murders, as the government insists, but more than 40,000.  (These represent 2010 numbers).

 Wikileaks Cable:


2009 U.S. State Department cable, later released by Wikileaks, hinted at darker forces at work: paramilitary death squads.


"City and state government officials have argued that there exists no evidence of a vigilante movement in Ciudad Juarez and that the messages by the CCJ (Juarez Citizen Command) are a hoax. A consulate contact in the press, however, suggests that the CCJ is a real self-defense group comprised of eight former 'Zetas' hired by four Juarez business owners (including 1998 PRI mayoral candidate Eleno Villaba)."


The cable went on to describe how the Zetas — a cartel that operates largely along the Gulf of Mexico — obtained their weapons. "According to the contact, the former Zetas paid a visit on local military commanders when they arrived in Juarez in September 2008, and purchased previously seized weapons from the army garrison. According to the contact, the former Zetas pledged not to target the army, and made themselves available to the army for extrajudicial operations."

In the book “El Sicario”, authored by Molly Molloy and Charles Bowden, Molloy in her introduction wrote about the Universal article and the death squads. The victims of these groups are the “malandros” or bad guys, gays, riffraff, all the elements of society that they deem human garbage. Below is an excerpt from the book;




The Universal article should have been an international bombshell, but the truth is the article was ignored not only by the Mexican press, but by the international press. Maybe it is not an eyebrow raising fact that the Mexican press ignored the article, but it is an outrage that the international press considered it unimportant and ignored the courageous article.

Perhaps that should be remembered when being critical with respect to the Mexican press coverage of the Drugwar.


 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: CJNG - 40+ Killed in Narco/PF Clash on Mich./Jalisco Border

Siskiyou_Kid
Yes, you have been talking about this for years, and I have to admit that I thought Charles Bowden and Molly Molloy were exaggerating somewhat when speaking of the involvement of the military in the Juarez holocaust.

I suppose I'm disappointed the international press is still not acknowledging the extent of the horror.

People seem to be content with swallowing the narrative served by the government that these are all bad guys who deserve to die, and so it is not something to be concerned about, like they would be about chemical weapons in Syria or the way they publicized government death squads in Central America.

A similar narrative was claimed by Central and South American despots, when civilian victims of military death squads were claimed to be communist guerrillas, and people saw right through the bullshit. I'm disappointed the government is so much more successful in claiming that victims of massacres in Mexico are just criminals not worth the time it would take to determine how they were killed.
Those that say, don't know. Those that know, don't say.
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Re: CJNG - 40+ Killed in Narco/PF Clash on Mich./Jalisco Border

Chivis
Administrator
Yeah I know, when I first arrived in Mx 11 years ago and hearing the stories from people and my family on the pacific side I thought it was BS.  or greatly exaggerated.  After I formed relationships with agents and others I know if anything, what we know is but a spec, of what in reality exists.

I think they used to be a lot smarter in conducting these kills, plus technology brings the truth a little closer.  I think the military and police forces are now being used for these kills and that also makes them vulnerable to being exposed.

anyway here is the full Black Squad article translated from El Universal...Good Night!!!

http://borderland-beat-forum.924382.n3.nabble.com/Social-Cleansing-Not-Drugwar-td4019605.html#a4020430
 
The way I see it.... the more people that don't like me, the less people I have to please
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Re: CJNG - 40+ Killed in Narco/PF Clash on Mich./Jalisco Border

ThinkTank
Banned User
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Re: CJNG - 40+ Killed in Narco/PF Clash on Mich./Jalisco Border

katattx
Think tank, the Mexican military has a very very long history of extra judicial killings and death squads. It's been reported in a wide variety of non mainstream media. I'm not arguing that these dead folks were innocent: I hope they really were the vicious criminals that the govt wants us to think they are. But the fact remains that there were more dead ppl than guns, meaning AT LEAST that some were unarmed. Also, the bodies being moved and photographed with clean guns, with no clips / wrong clips. That's suspicious as f***.  Mexico is NOT the USA! Nothing is ever exactly as it seems in Mexico. I want to think that these persons were killers firing on the military/police. But, in a country ruled by law, they should have been captured and tried. I'm sure the few good guys in law enforcement in MX get tired of arresting killers, only to see them back on the street days later. So I can understand the frustrations that the "good guys" must feel..If the guy is dead, he wont be killing anymore, that's one less assassin. I'm just not convinced that all these dead ppl in this incident really were criminals. That's my assertion. Im not picking sides, and I'm DAMN sure not cheerleading for cjng or any other cartel. Cuz if these folks were all cartel members, confirmed,I wouldn't be so concerned.

The location of this fight is rural, meaning that emergency services would have taken hours to arrive. It's plain laughable that govt forces would call for medical help for persons they allege are cartel killers. The whole point is to kill them! Yes its possible to survive gunshots, but even in urban areas, mexican medical services will refuse to enter crimes scenes to treat survivors. And there is no law requiring hospitals to administer stabilizing treatment, like here in the USA.

I think we all would love to see a Mexican criminal justice system that arrests, convicts and locks up accused cartel killers. Reality is very very far from that. When true killers get arrested, often they are turned loose, or escape. I can understand why soldiers and police would kill first and ask questions later. But that doesn't make it right.

I hope that with time, you  will realize that nothing in Mexico is black and white. Good guys vomit crimes in the name of preventing crime, ALL THE TIME! This is not a conspiracy nut idea. I suggest you read bb's archives. Things like this incident happens regularly in Mexico and sometimes the truth does come to light months or years later. You'll see a pattern after a few years of following non mainstream media lil bb.
 
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Re: CJNG - 40+ Killed in Narco/PF Clash on Mich./Jalisco Border

ummagumma
In reply to this post by ThinkTank
Also, if the dead were not CJNG, would not CJNG have made a statement to that effect by now, so as not to lose face?
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Re: CJNG - 40+ Killed in Narco/PF Clash on Mich./Jalisco Border

Siskiyou_Kid
In reply to this post by ThinkTank
I have not told anyone that the army murdered the people at Rancho El Sol. I have told my father that it looks like the scene was staged and that it is possible there were extrajudicial killings in response to the Cougar that was taken down.

As far as Iguala is concerned, I'm not sure who exactly killed the normalistas at Igaula, and why the army would have incinerated the victims. However, that is the MOST plausible explanation for what happened to the bodies. It is interesting to note that the normalistas were on the way to DF to protest the 46th anniversary of the Tlatelolco massacre.

I'm not sure why on earth you would bring 9/11 into this conversation, but no, I don't believe in any fashion that the US government was involving in planning or executing those awful terror attacks. I don't believe President Bush or anyone else knowingly ignored the intel indicating the attacks were about to happen. Do I believe they were distracted by their obsession with other targets? Absolutely.
Those that say, don't know. Those that know, don't say.
DD
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Re: CJNG - 40+ Killed in Narco/PF Clash on Mich./Jalisco Border

DD
In reply to this post by Pepe
Pepe.  I have read several articles that said AP had obtained a video of the shoot out.  Any news on that?
Words are powerful weapons, be careful how you use them.
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Re: CJNG - 40+ Killed in Narco/PF Clash on Mich./Jalisco Border

ThinkTank
Banned User
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Re: CJNG - 40+ Killed in Narco/PF Clash on Mich./Jalisco Border

Moros
In reply to this post by katattx
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Re: CJNG - 40+ Killed in Narco/PF Clash on Mich./Jalisco Border

ArmChairIntellect
In reply to this post by ThinkTank
Lord help me I can't for the life of me figure out if you're a troll, a kid or an idiot....  Katattx made a very insightful post that was respectful and the advice within held merit, what you posted demonstrates a lack of understanding of the realities facing Mexico.  Arrests do deter most from committing crimes, Mexico has a lack of arrest, 96% of crimes go unpunished, this in and of itself breeds and culture of impunity.    
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Re: CJNG - 40+ Killed in Narco/PF Clash on Mich./Jalisco Border

katattx
In reply to this post by Moros
Aren't you at least a little bit in doubt that s*** went down differently than the "official* story? That's all I'm saying. There's plenty reason to be suspicious of the official story. I know you understand because I think I've read every single post you've written on here! I follow Itzli's Tamps post religiously, because that's the state we go to, for dentist and meds. You bring a lot of good thought to the table......so surely you have doubts about the official version of the story?
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Re: CJNG - 40+ Killed in Narco/PF Clash on Mich./Jalisco Border

katattx
In reply to this post by Moros
Yes, you do mention plausible situations. The thing is, I have this expectation that police should follow laws, be transparent, and treat fatal engagements as a crime scene. I realize that this is far from reality in Mexico. Yes, sometimes innocent people do get killed while the good guys are pursuing the bad guys. But I would rather see less of that I stead of more. But when you have crime scenes so blatantly tampered with, finding out who is who cannot be done!
Now I'm.assuming that cpr and first aid is taught in MX like it is in the USA. The first thing you do to an unconscious person is check for pulse. You don't flip em over if you are there to help. But I would imagine that the authorities didn't get close enough to the dead to have a chance at saving anyone freshly shot. The photos in this thread show dried blood and rigor mortis. Blood can dry in minutes, but rigor mortis takes hours. These corpses were moved some times after the injuries and death occurred. That is not normal police or crime scene procedure. If the person is stiff, they are dead and have been for a while. Rolling em over to attempt cpr is beyond pointless.  In a honest  police investigation, the bodies should have photographed exactly as they were found. But this is Mexico....it happens.

But I refuse to think even the death of one single innocent person is acceptable collateral damage in this war.
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Re: CJNG - 40+ Killed in Narco/PF Clash on Mich./Jalisco Border

tuSancho
In reply to this post by Siskiyou_Kid
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Re: CJNG - 40+ Killed in Narco/PF Clash on Mich./Jalisco Border

tuSancho
In reply to this post by ArmChairIntellect
And of those jailed many are fall guys for real criminals and others just to poor to defend themselves.  So truly criminal convicts are even fewer.
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Re: CJNG - 40+ Killed in Narco/PF Clash on Mich./Jalisco Border

ummagumma
In reply to this post by katattx
In my country it would be unthinkable to move a corpse before a police photograph, but in Mexico? Remember the 'trophy' picture that Castillo used against Mireles - Doc holding up a corpse with a medic? What I mean is, is the moving of a body before a police photo really an issue?
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